Mercalli Image stabilizer or 'de-shaker'

stingman · Post by **stingman** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:36 pm

Mike Shaw wrote: ....if there were someone willing to try, why would he want to write for an obsolete product?

I don`t know were you got the `obsolete` tag from. As far as I know, Premiere is still being developed and sold. The Premiere Pro2 looks really excellent and as far as I know you can edit live from 4 different windows. Anyway what i`ve seen looks good. I just need the computer now, after my new SH Goldwing!

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:07 pm

No no! I was talking about Premier 6. That is out of date now, isn't it?

Perhaps it isn't - but I thought that's why they re-wrote it from the bottom up for the latest versions.

tom hardwick · Post by **tom hardwick** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:12 pm

You're quite right Mike, Premiere v 6.5 has been dead and burried a long time. The fact that lots of people still use it is about as relevant as people still using their old VX1000s or driving their Sierras.

tom.

billyfromConsett · Post by **billyfromConsett** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:52 pm

I can't help my blood pressure rising just a tad at the labels of Premiere 6 being old, obsolete rubbish etc... it's relevant because we use it. We're not professionals with money to keep investing, when the gear we've got does actually work reasonably well.

In my view, comparing it negatively to bug ridden, half-finshed-when-released versions of Pinnacle Studio also seems to be one sided story.

Not calling Avid - I don't know it. But I've used Pinnacle Studio on a number of occasions and been asked to help people learn it. I'd recommend people never to buy a new version of Studio, but wait until it's well patched. From my experience using Pinnacle editing cards, (my £800 Pro-One was a total disaster) no wonder they left making edit cards!

Regarding the poorness of Adobe Premiere 6.5, I think it is an good piece of editing kit. It works a dream with my Canopus Storm and is pretty stable.

I've tried Prem Pro - I didn't like the single line and a few other features it had. So I've stuck to Premiere 6.5.

I don't blame people for not developing new plug-ins for older apps, even the ones that people like me use. I don't believe that it's due to "Premiere 6.5 plugin interface limitations" but that's just my opinion.

It would be interesting to see more examples of the desired effect of the Mercelli app though. Although it's much more desireable to get some stability at the point of shooting, that's just always easy to do.

The example on the ProDad site is just a 7 second clip of a side-by-side comparison. Can they only manage one tiny clip?

If there are any examples on the internet anywhere then I'd like to see a few.

billyfromConsett · Post by **billyfromConsett** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:55 pm

tom hardwick wrote:You're quite right Mike, Premiere v 6.5 has been dead and burried a long time. The fact that lots of people still use it is about as relevant as people still using their old VX1000s or driving their Sierras.

tom.

Nice and fair.

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:14 pm

Actually, I think you need to explore the ProDad site a bit more - there are at least 6 examples of Mercalli there, probably more, and several 'combined example' clips - with different examples.

I think you're right about Pinnacle Studio - right the way through from Studio 400, all the way to Studio 10 - which was a total disaster on release. Studio 11 though is pretty stable. Hand on heart I can recommend it, even though I don't use it!

I'm not knocking anyone using 'older' software at all - I invariably leapfrog, missing out several upgrades before moving up. The problem with Premioere 6/6.5 is not that it doesn't work, but that the code base simply doesn't allow for the Mercalli plug-in to work.

Try running the latest Premiere on Windows 95 - or Premiere 6 even on Windows 95, and I think you'll be in trouble. Same goes trying to run Mercalli on Premiere 6. If they could make it work (and therefore cash in on the huge number of people using v6 still) believe me, they would.

Try playing a DVD on your record player. Why can't they make DVDs that play on a wind-up record player for heaven's sake?

billyfromConsett · Post by **billyfromConsett** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:34 pm

Mike Shaw wrote:Actually, I think you need to explore the ProDad site a bit more - there are at least 6 examples of Mercalli there, probably more, and several 'combined example' clips - with different examples.

I used to have a teacher at school whose reply to a question for information was "try looking for it". I found the link in ProDad's site http://www.prodad.de/gb/mercalli_std_samples.html

The plug-in clearly reduces shake.

Some of the clips appeared zoomed and had about 15% of the pictures edges removed, but were much less shakey. That could be a small price to pay.

Mike Shaw wrote:Try running the latest Premiere on Windows 95 - or Premiere 6 even on Windows 95, and I think you'll be in trouble.

Who needs Windows 95 when I'm quite happy with Amiga Workbench. Premiere 6.5 is happy with that. So should Mercelli.

And for your info Mike, my Deep Purple album Machine Head sounds far better on my Lynn Axis turntable than through any DVD player I've heard.

There is a place for vinyl, cine, gramophones and the like, though their use for camera shake is, well, debateable...

Post by **Dave Watterson** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:15 pm

Let's not get into "format wars" or their equivalent!

I am lucky enough to have a version of Premiere that does work with Mercalli and I am experimenting with it on that platform. So far so good ... but I want to test a few more things.

What interests me is whether - if it works as well as it seems to do - we should start recommending people to buy the software instead of a tripod.

After all a good tripod is an expensive piece of kit and also a pain to carry around. The vast majority of amateur film makers seldom bother to use a tripod or any other form of stabiliser so far as I can see. I mean people who are in our movement and have some slightly more serious aim than folk who only ever bought a camcorder to take holiday snaps that move.

Of course it is better to get it right when shooting - but the fact is we don't. So if a relatively modestly priced piece of software will do the trick of making our shots steadier and so better to watch ... surely that is the way to go?

Dave

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:16 pm

I used to have a teacher at school whose reply to a question for information was "try looking for it".

Wise teacher. "You can give a man a fish ... or you can teach him to fish" sort of thing.

Billy, I thnk you're totally missing the point here (I prefer to think that to the alternative... deliberately avoiding the point...). From my conversations with the ProDad chap, it simply isn't possible for them to create a Mercalli plug-in for Premiere 6. Physically, factually, the program (Premiere 6) simply can't handle the mechanics of what is required to make Mercalli run. Full stop. Its nothing to do with the OS. Its not a case of not wanting to, or not bothering to. Its a case of it simply not being possible. I tried to explain with crude analogies ... OK, so you don't need to run Premiere on Win 95. That wasn't the point. The point is, even if you wanted to, which you patently don't, you can't. And for some reason, you think that because Premiere runs on a particular OS, so should Mercalli - well. it doesn't work like that. Mercalli is a plug-in that 'attaches' to and works with a program's own mechanisms via 'hooks'. If the program doesn't have the right hooks - and the program developers don't want to provide those hooks, Mercalli can't link in and work within that program. Perhaps that explains it better.

At the moment, it doesn't work with Pinnacle Studio either. But Studio developers are working with ProDad developers to get the right hooks. Adobe developers are obviously not interested in making it work with their 'old', superceded version of Premiere. End of message. They want peolple to move on to a later version. Your choice. I don't think it will work with earlier versions of Studio either - ever. Checks are being made at the moment to see if it will run with earlier versions (6) of Liquid.

So. Lets just accept the fact.... With Premiere 6, you will not be a Mercalli user, and leave it at that.

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:33 pm

What interests me is whether - if it works as well as it seems to do - we should start recommending people to buy the software instead of a tripod.

That's a good question Dave. My immediate reaction on seeing what it can do was 'Hooray, I needn't lug a heavy tripod around all the time'. But it isn't that simple or clear cut, I think.

On really shaky videos, Mercalli does an excellent job without necessarily enlarging the image: but the result can involve the edges of the image being blurred at strategic points - edges which Mercalli has put in to replace the 'black border', I might add. It is possible to experiment to minimise that border effect - or eliminate it altogether by allowing the image to enlarge if necessary (Expert version only I think).

Point is, whilst it is a real life saver - and as I thnk I may have mentioned, now makes available a whole drawer full of old VHS-C and Hi-8 tapes I shot years ago but haven't been able to use because of the cam wobbles - I don't think one can truly say 'ditch the tripod' altogether. I will certainly be reducing my tripod carrying to essential events. But I won't get rid of it: after all, it is easier to start with a steady shot than to spend time on the editor stabilizing the shot. Think of it more as a remedy than an alternative.

I have found something else as well (it isn't all a bed of roses!!). In Liquid, anyway, if other effects are applied as well, the Mercalli filter can be upset a bit and cause odd things to happen. My solution to that is - steady the clip with Mercalli, then 'fuse' it (the Liquid term for creating a new AVI of that clip - something it does almost instantly, or at least darned fast!), then use the new, steady clip for any further filters. Again, the ProDad people (and the Liquid people) know about this and they're working on it.

What I have yet to try is applying a Mercalli filter to a containerised block of clips. My feeling is, that wouild be asking too much of it. But it will be interesting to find out.

billyfromConsett · Post by **billyfromConsett** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:19 am

Mike Shaw wrote:Billy, I thnk you're totally missing the point here (I prefer to think that to the alternative... deliberately avoiding the point...)

I think your reading half of my posts and skipping the rest.

And I won't go into the "computer programming for idiots" patronising lecture about why Mercalli won't arrive for Premiere 6.5, let me just clarify for everyone that Mercalli looks a very good plug-in for those shakey shots that need it. I hear the Premiere Pro does have a built-in equivalentish filter, though I am happy with the dead and buried, obsolete and just not very good Premiere 6.5.

billyfromConsett · Post by **billyfromConsett** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:33 am

Dave Watterson wrote:The vast majority of amateur film makers seldom bother to use a tripod or any other form of stabiliser so far as I can see.

Of course it is better to get it right when shooting - but the fact is we don't. So if a relatively modestly priced piece of software will do the trick of making our shots steadier and so better to watch ... surely that is the way to go?

Dave

I think it's hard for people who make movies about where they've visited to lug around decent tripods, but c'mon Dave, most dramas, many documentaries, and movies of stage stuff usually use some of stabilising device, even if its holding the cam against something.

I've got a decent tripod, its dolly, a steadicam and accessory for stability. Many of us have at least some of these things.

I get wobbly shots or jerky movements even with them here and there, but we do use these things. Honest.

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:08 am

Oh heck! Billy, I'm not sure which part I didn't read (having just gone through it all again), but it seemed to me you were saying that if others can write plug-ins that work for AP6, or that if AP6 can run on an OS, then so should Mercalli. If you weren't saying that then I totally misread what you were saying.

In any case - apologies, it was not my intention to patronise, belittle or whaever - merely to explain why as far as AP6 is concerned Mercalli is a no-no, and will remain a no-no.

Lets just leave it at that.

stingman · Post by **stingman** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 pm

Ah. I just LOVE a debate, don`t you, and we havn`t even started to pull out the knives yet

!

Dave, you cannot advise people to ditch there tripods, can you?

! Even I wouldn`t say that!

Prem 6.5 is a VERY powerful piece of kit. Almost every conceivable angle of picture manipulation has been thought of. Yes, the single line of transitions is a bit limiting when you have used Prem Pro 1.5. I started on Premiere 6.5 and it was really easy to get on with. I`ve also tried the other editing software and even Serif`s Movie thing. I could not even think how to do basic tasks on them

If you want something that is powewrfull and easy to use at any level of competance, the Premiere is the way to go.

As for Prodad or whatever. It`s still being developed and I recon that they will use them in major films as an anti-shaker. I proberly wont get this software as I will either use a tripod or try to get it out manually useing a 4% enlargement and the move function in Premiere.

As for Avid, I think most people will only use it if they can get a ripped copy of it on Ebay for £15. Sad by True.

Thanks for starting this thread and bringing this software to our attension. This is what this forum is all about. To try out new stuff and report and debate on it. Yes, we argue, even without trying the software! But thats how it works.

Great stuff!

Mike Shaw · Post by **Mike Shaw** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:32 pm

As for Avid, I think most people will only use it if they can get a ripped copy of it on Ebay for £15.

Liquid costs the same as Premiere. In my eyes (and this is totally subjective of course), it far outperforms even the latest versions of Premiere. in every aspect. It is a mystery toi me why it is such a 'secret' - poor promotion perhaps. Anyway, as a beta tester on Liquid, I'm obviously quite biased regarding its abilities compared with other editors (I also test Pinnacle Studio - but I don't actually rate that very highly as a serious video editor, though the latest version is very stable and very capable, it's just not my cup of tea).

Anyway, Liquid is going to go through a metamorphis in much the same way Premiere did - the code has just got too choked up to be able to advance any further with today's PC environments. I think it is going to be redesigned from the bottom up (or top down, whichever way they work on these things these days) to become the true next generation video editing soluition that can handle everything likely to pop out of the likes of Sony et al for the next ten years or so. They're aiming to set the trend for all future editors. I do believe other companies - and MicroSoft - are colluding (right word?) with the Munich people (development team) to that end. So, the next Liquid will be ... when? what? how much? I really wish I knew!

When it comes down to it though, the editor you know and love is the best one to use: for me, the workflows of Liquid, and the feature set and capabilities (like never ever having to save Liquid saves everything automatically - 30 times a second!) suit the way I like to work, whereas I find Premiere and Vegas hard work and lacking in many areas. That's just me - thousands more use Premiere than use Liquid, that's undenaiable.

Put another way ... I love my Liquid!