Here in the USA amateur clubs are both ageing and in decline. The combined
AMPS and AMMA have far fewer members than the IAC.
Where are the amateur (non-commercial film makers) and how do we attract
them to our Festivals and the benefits of membership in organisations such
as AMPS/AMMA/IAC?
What is happening to clubs world-wide?
Is the movement really strong on Continental Europe or is is this just the
perception of an outsider?
Have "amateurs" been replaced by a new breed of film makers who straddle
the non-commercial and professional worlds but don't want the word "amateur"
anywhere near them?
Is the amateur film maker, like the environment, beyond saving but noone
wants to admit it?
Ned C
What do amateur film makers want?
-
Dave Watterson
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
"ned c" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
"The BDFA includes over 230 clubs with approximately 5000 members today.
Many have been members of the association for decades - it therefore is an
urgent goal to win as many as possible young new members. This is no easy
venture, young people nowadays are pretty sceptical about clubs ..."
Belgium - the CvB website speaks of 300 photo and film making clubs. I cannot
decipher any indication of likely number of film makers or members in those
clubs, maybe Willy can help.
France - the FFCV website speaks of (my translation) "more than one hundred
clubs and workshops as well as individual members practising the video cinema
and it with title not professionals."
Netherlands - the NOVA leaflet says "THE NOVA total of associated clubs is
now approx. 140 with around 3000 members.
Italy - the FEDIC website lists 49 clubs
Austria - the VOFA website lists 64 clubs
....
I think - but am not sure about this - that many of those organisations can
channel government money to the clubs which could help to explain their numbers.
Some of those organisations insist that only film makers who are members
of a club that is in the federation can take part in their competitions.
Sometimes there are other benefits within the laws of the countries concerned
which give benefits to card-carrying members and not to other camcorder users.
Dave
Germany (from the website of their federation, BDFA - my translation):What is happening to clubs world-wide?
Is the movement really strong on Continental Europe or is is this just the
perception of an outsider?
"The BDFA includes over 230 clubs with approximately 5000 members today.
Many have been members of the association for decades - it therefore is an
urgent goal to win as many as possible young new members. This is no easy
venture, young people nowadays are pretty sceptical about clubs ..."
Belgium - the CvB website speaks of 300 photo and film making clubs. I cannot
decipher any indication of likely number of film makers or members in those
clubs, maybe Willy can help.
France - the FFCV website speaks of (my translation) "more than one hundred
clubs and workshops as well as individual members practising the video cinema
and it with title not professionals."
Netherlands - the NOVA leaflet says "THE NOVA total of associated clubs is
now approx. 140 with around 3000 members.
Italy - the FEDIC website lists 49 clubs
Austria - the VOFA website lists 64 clubs
....
I think - but am not sure about this - that many of those organisations can
channel government money to the clubs which could help to explain their numbers.
Some of those organisations insist that only film makers who are members
of a club that is in the federation can take part in their competitions.
Sometimes there are other benefits within the laws of the countries concerned
which give benefits to card-carrying members and not to other camcorder users.
Dave
-
Willy Van der Linden
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Indeed, there are 300 photo and film making clubs in Flanders. About 100
of them are only film making clubs. To be honest they are all falling into
decay. My club is one of the youngest ones. However I fear that it will disappear
very soon. That's strange, isn't it ? I'm the president and secretary at
the same time. Nobody wants to replace me. And I'm not the only one ! My
colleagues in other clubs have the same problem. The younger ones don't have
the courage to organize everything. They only want to make films, but they
hate paper work. Unfortunately CvB allows indivuals now to take part in regional
and national competitions. It does not stimulate club life. On the contrary
! That's very sad. You don't have to be a member of a club anymore.
It all started about 5 years ago. Our government created CvB ... and some
new jobs : a president and a secretary who are well-paid. Perhaps to please
some good friends... Who knows ? Some time ago the co-ordinating organisation
was called NAB. The president and secretary were only volunteers.
Individualism is a bad phenomenon, Ned. It does not only occur in movie clubs,
but also in other hobby clubs. About 20-30 years ago we had at least 2 or
3 brass bands in every village. Most of them have dissapeared. Musicians
from 2 or 3 bands (or fanfares) come together and form one band to give a
performance. This won't even be possible in a few years, I fear. Young musicians
only want to join professional bands, not only to emjoy themselves, but also
to earn some (extra) money. It's a bit like that in film making.
An other bad thing. More and more competitions are organized on internet.
Young people seem to enjoy this. The films are shown on a website and you
can vote. Last year in Ostend, which is a seaside resort in Belgium, a one-minute-movie
competition was organized on internet. There were about 25 entries, most
of them from youngsters. The style of the films was quite different.
Perhaps the ageing process is also caused by our own behaviour. Most judging
panels are old, even very old. Why shouldn't we try to organize seperate
competitions for young club members, let's say under 30, and ask other young
people to judge their films ? Anyway, we must do everything we can to stop
individualism, but I think that it's already become a political problem in
Belgium. Some months ago our Flemish Minister-President said that we must
do our utmost to have a revival of club life in our society, but he didn't
tell us how.
: Flanders (Dutch speaking), Wallony (French speaking) and the German region."ned c" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
What is happening to clubs world-wide?
Is the movement really strong on Continental Europe or is is this just
the
perception of an outsider?
Belgium - the CvB website speaks of 300 photo and film making clubs. I cannot
decipher any indication of likely number of film makers or members in those
clubs, maybe Willy can help.
I think - but am not sure about this - that many of those organisations
can
channel government money to the clubs which could help to explain their
numbers.
Some of those organisations insist that only film makers who are members
of a club that is in the federation can take part in their competitions.
Sometimes there are other benefits within the laws of the countries concerned
which give benefits to card-carrying members and not to other camcorder
users.
Only the Flemish local clubs fall under CvB. Belgium consists of three parts
Indeed, there are 300 photo and film making clubs in Flanders. About 100
of them are only film making clubs. To be honest they are all falling into
decay. My club is one of the youngest ones. However I fear that it will disappear
very soon. That's strange, isn't it ? I'm the president and secretary at
the same time. Nobody wants to replace me. And I'm not the only one ! My
colleagues in other clubs have the same problem. The younger ones don't have
the courage to organize everything. They only want to make films, but they
hate paper work. Unfortunately CvB allows indivuals now to take part in regional
and national competitions. It does not stimulate club life. On the contrary
! That's very sad. You don't have to be a member of a club anymore.
It all started about 5 years ago. Our government created CvB ... and some
new jobs : a president and a secretary who are well-paid. Perhaps to please
some good friends... Who knows ? Some time ago the co-ordinating organisation
was called NAB. The president and secretary were only volunteers.
Individualism is a bad phenomenon, Ned. It does not only occur in movie clubs,
but also in other hobby clubs. About 20-30 years ago we had at least 2 or
3 brass bands in every village. Most of them have dissapeared. Musicians
from 2 or 3 bands (or fanfares) come together and form one band to give a
performance. This won't even be possible in a few years, I fear. Young musicians
only want to join professional bands, not only to emjoy themselves, but also
to earn some (extra) money. It's a bit like that in film making.
An other bad thing. More and more competitions are organized on internet.
Young people seem to enjoy this. The films are shown on a website and you
can vote. Last year in Ostend, which is a seaside resort in Belgium, a one-minute-movie
competition was organized on internet. There were about 25 entries, most
of them from youngsters. The style of the films was quite different.
Perhaps the ageing process is also caused by our own behaviour. Most judging
panels are old, even very old. Why shouldn't we try to organize seperate
competitions for young club members, let's say under 30, and ask other young
people to judge their films ? Anyway, we must do everything we can to stop
individualism, but I think that it's already become a political problem in
Belgium. Some months ago our Flemish Minister-President said that we must
do our utmost to have a revival of club life in our society, but he didn't
tell us how.
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
Some regularly available, interested and able actors would be very handy and
to nail three members of a local amateur dramatics group to a court room
wall for liable would be very satisfying! (is that too political?)
to nail three members of a local amateur dramatics group to a court room
wall for liable would be very satisfying! (is that too political?)
-
Michael Slowe
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
Willy writes that 'individualism' is a bad thing, both in life generally
and film making in particular. I disagree entiely. As I have written earlier
on this forum I think that the best films are made by individuals and what
is wrong with that. I am not against social intercourse but there is a time
and place for that. Film making is hard enough as it is without having to
cope with all the strife and politics as outlined by our friend Ian on this
forum. There is no need for amateur (non commercial) film making to die
and indeed the number of films now being made by young people shows that
it won't. As Ned indicates, the gulf between commercial and non commercial
film making is narrowing and we should welcome this because it may help amateur
films to escape the sneers that are historically cast in our direction.
Willy, by all means try and get young people to serve on judging panels but
why separate competitions, that would defeat the object surely?
and film making in particular. I disagree entiely. As I have written earlier
on this forum I think that the best films are made by individuals and what
is wrong with that. I am not against social intercourse but there is a time
and place for that. Film making is hard enough as it is without having to
cope with all the strife and politics as outlined by our friend Ian on this
forum. There is no need for amateur (non commercial) film making to die
and indeed the number of films now being made by young people shows that
it won't. As Ned indicates, the gulf between commercial and non commercial
film making is narrowing and we should welcome this because it may help amateur
films to escape the sneers that are historically cast in our direction.
Willy, by all means try and get young people to serve on judging panels but
why separate competitions, that would defeat the object surely?
-
Willy Van der Linden
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
"Michael Slowe" <michael.slowe@btinternet.com> wrote:
you're right, Michael, saying that the best films are made by individuals.
It would be very exceptional that two film makers share exactly the same
feelings about something to make a film together. By "individualism",
however, I mean that more and more youngsters don't have the desire to show
their films at a festival, a festival which is the forum to have chats with
other film makers. Why not ? Because they don't like the style of films screened
there and they don't want their films to be judged by all those old ladies
and gentlemen anymore. They find festivals very boring. At least that's
what they've told me in my own club. OK, if you do not agree with seperate
competitions for young people, what do you think of mixed judging panels
then ? And what can we do to fight against our the ageing process in our
film making society ? Our clubs are disappearing, one by one. That's very
sad. I think that's what Ned would like to know. What can we do ? To be honest,
I think that the average age of the people attending BIAF is also very high.
Do you agree with this ?
Really, I do my utmost to please the younger ones in my club. Next week I'll
go to the Royal Military Museum in Brussels together with Davy who's 33 years
younger than me, and who would like to make a film about a Wako airoplane
that crashed into a field not far from us during the Second World War. I've
discovered on internet that in the museum shop you can buy a set to build
a miniature Wako. Of course I wonder how he will use it in his documentary.
Some time ago he helped me with my Breendonk-film. In the film a man is
executed, but you couldn't see the striking of the bullet into his body.
Now you can. Davy could fix it for me with his computer ! But, please, do
not ask Davy to attend festivals ! However, he's one of the exceptional young
film makers who seem to enjoy club life. I don't feel any generation gap,
and apparently he doesn't feel it either. But Davy is exceptional.
An other thing : Sometimes I feel that I should stop chatting on this forum
for a while. I enjoy it, but am I not exaggerating ? Perhaps it would be
better to play tennis or to make a trip on my bike as intermezzi instead
of writing messages all the time when I'm not working on my film(s).
Willy
Of course there isn't anything wrong with films made by individuals. Perhaps
Willy writes that 'individualism' is a bad thing, both in life generally
and film making in particular. I disagree entirely. As I have written earlier
on this forum I think that the best films are made by individuals and what
is wrong with that.
Willy, by all means try and get young people to serve on judging panels
but
why separate competitions, that would defeat the object surely?
you're right, Michael, saying that the best films are made by individuals.
It would be very exceptional that two film makers share exactly the same
feelings about something to make a film together. By "individualism",
however, I mean that more and more youngsters don't have the desire to show
their films at a festival, a festival which is the forum to have chats with
other film makers. Why not ? Because they don't like the style of films screened
there and they don't want their films to be judged by all those old ladies
and gentlemen anymore. They find festivals very boring. At least that's
what they've told me in my own club. OK, if you do not agree with seperate
competitions for young people, what do you think of mixed judging panels
then ? And what can we do to fight against our the ageing process in our
film making society ? Our clubs are disappearing, one by one. That's very
sad. I think that's what Ned would like to know. What can we do ? To be honest,
I think that the average age of the people attending BIAF is also very high.
Do you agree with this ?
Really, I do my utmost to please the younger ones in my club. Next week I'll
go to the Royal Military Museum in Brussels together with Davy who's 33 years
younger than me, and who would like to make a film about a Wako airoplane
that crashed into a field not far from us during the Second World War. I've
discovered on internet that in the museum shop you can buy a set to build
a miniature Wako. Of course I wonder how he will use it in his documentary.
Some time ago he helped me with my Breendonk-film. In the film a man is
executed, but you couldn't see the striking of the bullet into his body.
Now you can. Davy could fix it for me with his computer ! But, please, do
not ask Davy to attend festivals ! However, he's one of the exceptional young
film makers who seem to enjoy club life. I don't feel any generation gap,
and apparently he doesn't feel it either. But Davy is exceptional.
An other thing : Sometimes I feel that I should stop chatting on this forum
for a while. I enjoy it, but am I not exaggerating ? Perhaps it would be
better to play tennis or to make a trip on my bike as intermezzi instead
of writing messages all the time when I'm not working on my film(s).
Willy
-
ned c
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
Interesting replies. First, Willy, keep on writing, I enjoy your comments
and reports they are both interesting and informative and above all, human.
I also agree with Michael that a lot of very good films are made by individualists.
Film making is a broad world that can encompass all styles and approaches,
its just the judges who get it wrong!
Here is my take on what is happening in our world particularly in the USA.
Clubs that combine a social element and special interest are in decline,
Many young film makers have an education in film making and would like to
be professionals but that is a very small world and difficult to enter so
they make films that are demonstrations of their ability and use them in
Festivals (of which there are now hundreds) in the hope of a professional
connection. They form a group for a production, make their film; dissolve
and then form another group for their next production. You can see this happening
in the UK on the website of shootingpeople.
My question is, when they have failed after a number of attempts to enter
the professional world do they just give up film making or take a day job
and make films for fun? And if they do how can we find them and access their
skills? I recently wrote an article along thsese lines and submitted to a
professional film magazine, it was rejected, but the question still needs
an answer, what happens to all the "failed professionals"?
I agree with Willy that young people do not want to be members of a club
along with people their grandparents age, they also make films of a very
different style. This should strengthen the need for organisations like AMPS
and the IAC, they are not clubs but information/resource centres and could
provide a contact for groups to form and also arrange distribution of their
films. The IAC website is a model of excellence and in many ways delivers
a reference point that must surely eventually replace the magazine as print
and distribution costs rise.
In Festivals it is useful to have a student section that encompasses all
students from elementary school to graduate school with a number of defined
genres as well as a "general" section. Ideally the student section should
be judged by a panel of young film makers.
I now have grandchildren who make films, a granddaughter recently made a
film for a high school project. Well shot, carefully edited, her brother
created music using Sony Acid, it received an A and she and her friends fall
about laughing as they watch it. To me it is almost incomprehensible, perhaps
the problem lies with me, perhaps I am Academician as the Impressionists
tear down the established norms, ah well, great debate though!
Ned C
and reports they are both interesting and informative and above all, human.
I also agree with Michael that a lot of very good films are made by individualists.
Film making is a broad world that can encompass all styles and approaches,
its just the judges who get it wrong!
Here is my take on what is happening in our world particularly in the USA.
Clubs that combine a social element and special interest are in decline,
Many young film makers have an education in film making and would like to
be professionals but that is a very small world and difficult to enter so
they make films that are demonstrations of their ability and use them in
Festivals (of which there are now hundreds) in the hope of a professional
connection. They form a group for a production, make their film; dissolve
and then form another group for their next production. You can see this happening
in the UK on the website of shootingpeople.
My question is, when they have failed after a number of attempts to enter
the professional world do they just give up film making or take a day job
and make films for fun? And if they do how can we find them and access their
skills? I recently wrote an article along thsese lines and submitted to a
professional film magazine, it was rejected, but the question still needs
an answer, what happens to all the "failed professionals"?
I agree with Willy that young people do not want to be members of a club
along with people their grandparents age, they also make films of a very
different style. This should strengthen the need for organisations like AMPS
and the IAC, they are not clubs but information/resource centres and could
provide a contact for groups to form and also arrange distribution of their
films. The IAC website is a model of excellence and in many ways delivers
a reference point that must surely eventually replace the magazine as print
and distribution costs rise.
In Festivals it is useful to have a student section that encompasses all
students from elementary school to graduate school with a number of defined
genres as well as a "general" section. Ideally the student section should
be judged by a panel of young film makers.
I now have grandchildren who make films, a granddaughter recently made a
film for a high school project. Well shot, carefully edited, her brother
created music using Sony Acid, it received an A and she and her friends fall
about laughing as they watch it. To me it is almost incomprehensible, perhaps
the problem lies with me, perhaps I am Academician as the Impressionists
tear down the established norms, ah well, great debate though!
Ned C
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: What do amateur film makers want?
They end up in a void along with missed calls, text messages to mobile phoneswhat happens to all the "failed professionals"?
that don't work and emails to closed email accounts!