MULTIPLE ENTRIES

[Ken Wilson]

Re: BIAFF at Harrogate. Perhaps this only really applies to unrestrained and
prolific film makers such as myself, but the price hike for competition entries
makes multiple submissions a bit costly. I hear moans from various sources
about costs within the IAC such as membership fees, but don`t support these
complaints as this is fantastic value for money. Membership fees are next
to nothing, less than a £1 lottery ticket per week. The regular increase
in entry fees is another matter. It now costs £10.00 to put a film into BIAFF
which I think is a bit steep, particularly when you send in several movies.
In 2003, PHASE 4 made 5 films and I am thinking long and hard about which
ones to enter. The incentive to enter is purely for the films to get seen
by a wider audience, as no prize money is involved.
Film making has never been cheap and basically, the cost of our hobby has
never been a consideration to me. A film costs whatever it costs to make
it and I would never omit a scene due to the cost of shooting it. I understand,
however, that one of the largest expenditures for the movie festivals is
the certificates. Personally, I am not too worried about receiving these
and from my own viewpoint would gladly manage without this "proof" that the
film has been given a "silver" or a "gold".
Obviously many people like to receive their certificate to display it in
a frame or glass cabinet, but in our case they mostly end up in a folder.
I am/ we are delighted when our films are recognised by an award, but this
is enough for us and the certificate is unneccesary.
I understand that the IAC is struggling for funds at present, so why not
cut down on, or elliminate the certificates and perhaps slightly reduce the
entry fees for next year. What do you all think?
Ken.

[AN]

"Ken Wilson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:

Re: BIAFF at Harrogate. Perhaps this only really applies to unrestrained
and
prolific film makers such as myself, but the price hike for competition
entries
makes multiple submissions a bit costly. I hear moans from various sources
about costs within the IAC such as membership fees, but don`t support these
complaints as this is fantastic value for money. Membership fees are next
to nothing, less than a £1 lottery ticket per week. The regular increase
in entry fees is another matter. It now costs £10.00 to put a film into
BIAFF
which I think is a bit steep, particularly when you send in several movies.
In 2003, PHASE 4 made 5 films and I am thinking long and hard about which
ones to enter.

Snap Ken. For I too have entered 5 films this year.
My wife has entered one so the total cost to us was over 50 pounds!


The incentive to enter is purely for the films to get seen

by a wider audience, as no prize money is involved.
Film making has never been cheap and basically, the cost of our hobby has
never been a consideration to me. A film costs whatever it costs to make
it and I would never omit a scene due to the cost of shooting it. I understand,
however, that one of the largest expenditures for the movie festivals is
the certificates. Personally, I am not too worried about receiving these
and from my own viewpoint would gladly manage without this "proof" that
the
film has been given a "silver" or a "gold".

Yes, the certs are pointless to many (you and I included Ken). I only enter
for one
reason...to try and get a silver. In this way one gets an audience in a
mini cinema
of about 50 or so. Getting gold does not increase the audience at all, so
why
bother!! (that should start a very heated discussion!)
I've got to the stage of working out how much a head the audiences
cost me!

I am/ we are delighted when our films are recognised by an award, but this
is enough for us and the certificate is unneccesary.
I understand that the IAC is struggling for funds at present, so why not
cut down on, or elliminate the certificates and perhaps slightly reduce
the
entry fees for next year. What do you all think?

One could tick on the entry form whether the cert is required. If not,
then a reduction is in order.

Here are my ticks now......... <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Albert....about to get ticked off!

[Ned C]

I have entered a film for the first time and am mystified why the certificates
should cost so much, have never seen one so assume they must be very impresive
to cost a major part of the GBP10 entry fee. Surely they can be created on
a computer at the cost of a few pence and even with mailing shouldn't cost
more than 10 per cent of the entry fee? The minority get them so why so expensive?
Or am I, as usual, missing something?

Ned C

[Dave Watterson]

Cost of certificates ... er, probably not the big issue here!
x
I have been off IAC Council for 14 months so do not know precisely
how the level of entry fees was decided. A major competition does
involve significant expenditure. A fair part of the costs for
IAC will be feeding the judges. No, seriously.
x
The system is changing a bit this year but in the past has involved
over 21 different judges spread over three separate weekends, who
all have to be fed and watered from Friday dinner to Sunday
afternoon tea.
x
There are costs involved in printing certificates, sending them
up and down the country for a volunteer to inscribe the winners'
names etc. The trophies have to be insured each year and engraved
each year.
x
The competition manager has to make countless phone calls, send
letters, emails and faxes to sort out problems ... people who send
the wrong fee, wrong movie etc. Judges have to be chased to provide
their notes. All these costs have to be reimbursed.
x
I think Brian Dunckley, IAC Competition Manager this year, has email
but not internet (don't ask!) so he could not respond here even if
he had a moment, which seems unlikely this month!!!
x
BUT having said all that ... I have argued in the past that the IAC
competition ought to be free. It functions as one of our major
educational initiatives - encouraging people to raise their game
each year and showing to festival audiences and those who later hire
the tapes of winners just how good our best amateur movie makers are.
The counter-argument is that it is impractical, we would be swamped.
x
Nice problem!
x
Given that there are fees ...
Prolific movie makers do seem to suffer unduly, but how else do you
charge a fair proportion of the overall costs? Maybe we should charge
a fee per minute of screen time - it might reduce the number of feature
length entries? I guess the fairest way would be to charge every entrant
a fixed admin sum reflecting the actual cost of handling her/his entry
plus a fee per minute which would reflect the relative judging costs.
What would that do to admin costs!!!
x
But as usual I have no real answers

Dave (Philosopher) Watterson

P.S. For many years the IAC competition has roughly broken even,
with costs matching income.

[Ken Wilson]

Interesting responses. I too have no answers, only posed the questions. I
in no way begrudge the judges being fed and watered as this is only to be
expected. Admin fees too are unavoidable and we can`t expect everyone to
do it all for free.
My comments on the cost of certificates was based on past remarks by who
I (honestly!) cannot remember. I was told that they cost a substantial proportion
on the entry fee. It was suggested that up to a half (£5.00) goes this way.
Does anyone know the actual cost?
Ned has a point that these could be done on a computer for a few pence each.

It may be that this information was incorrect or misinformed.
As Albert has also said, £50.00 is a bit much just to get your films on the
screen.

Ken.

[AN]

"Ned C" <fred@sid.com> wrote:

I have entered a film for the first time and am mystified why the certificates
should cost so much, have never seen one so assume they must be very impresive
to cost a major part of the GBP10 entry fee. Surely they can be created
on
a computer at the cost of a few pence and even with mailing shouldn't cost
more than 10 per cent of the entry fee? The minority get them so why so
expensive?

I don't think it's a minority, Ned. Because of the big range of certs given
(gold/silver/bronze etc) I would estimate at least half of entrants get a
cert.

I was gonna suggest that all senior citizens be given a discount on entry
fees, but then I daresay the majority of entrants are OAPs anyway(!?), so
that
would not work either.
Dave's suggestion re time seems a good idea...I shall make 5 second
films in future and enter them at 1p each !

Albert...spending a penny.
PS. Just out of interest what is the shortest film ever made??

[Michael Slowe]

"AN" <AnimatioN@btopenworld.com> wrote:

"Ned C" <fred@sid.com> wrote:

I have entered a film for the first time and am mystified why the certificates
should cost so much, have never seen one so assume they must be very impresive
to cost a major part of the GBP10 entry fee. Surely they can be created
on
a computer at the cost of a few pence and even with mailing shouldn't cost
more than 10 per cent of the entry fee? The minority get them so why so
expensive?

I don't think it's a minority, Ned. Because of the big range of certs given
(gold/silver/bronze etc) I would estimate at least half of entrants get
a
cert.

I was gonna suggest that all senior citizens be given a discount on entry
fees, but then I daresay the majority of entrants are OAPs anyway(!?), so
that
would not work either.
Dave's suggestion re time seems a good idea...I shall make 5 second
films in future and enter them at 1p each !

Albert...spending a penny.
PS. Just out of interest what is the shortest film ever made??

I don't think that the entry fee is just a means of recovering the running
costs of the competition but more a way of improving the Institute's finances,
which, by all accounts are pretty dire. Nothing wrong with that surely? The
appeal for sponsoring assistance in respect of the Festival (Harrogate 2004)
is an indication of a need. Considering what we had to spend to produce
a film in the old days, with stock and lab costs, video is child's play so
we shouldn't begrudge the IAC the entry fee for the festival if it assists
financial safety. The suggestion of saving money on the certificates has
my vote, I've got drawers stuffed with them , being very old and making films
for 40 years!

Michael Slowe.

[AN]

"Michael Slowe" <michael.slowe@btinternet.com> wrote:

I don't think that the entry fee is just a means of recovering the running
costs of the competition but more a way of improving the Institute's finances,
which, by all accounts are pretty dire. Nothing wrong with that surely?
The
appeal for sponsoring assistance in respect of the Festival (Harrogate 2004)
is an indication of a need. Considering what we had to spend to produce
a film in the old days, with stock and lab costs, video is child's play

PCs/good cameras/software are rather expensive toys though.

we shouldn't begrudge the IAC the entry fee for the festival if it assists
financial safety. The suggestion of saving money on the certificates has
my vote, I've got drawers stuffed with them

Isn't that rather uncomfortable for the wife?

being very old

......Ahhhh, fade in the violins, wipe away a tear.

Albert....shedding a crocodile tear.

[Dave Watterson]

Actually every entrant gets a certificate!

Even if you do not qualify for a "Blue Seal" you get a "Certificate of Entry".

So you can reckon on about 120 certificates each year.

BUT don't belittle certificates. They may be run-of-the-mill for those who
have been around and making great movies for a while, but for those starting
in the hobby and those seeking to measure improvement in their work they
are
useful and highly valued.

The joy of the IAC competition is that the first part of it is a grading
exercise ranking work in blue / bronze / silver and gold levels
and the second part is choosing the outstanding entries for special awards.
I like to refer to stage one as a benchmarking process which lets moviemakers
get an independent assessment of their work. Many movie makers tell me that
what they find hard to get is an unbiased, honest assessment of their movies.
Friends and family are too close, casual audiences too careless.

How do you all assess your work?

Dave (I Am Curious, Yellow) Watterson

[AN]

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:

How do you all assess your work?

It's very, very important to have seen, over the years, as many of the
the best films made in the genre one is working in. One needs
a benchmark of quality as it were to try to aim at.
This does not mean that one copies, in fact the biggest challenge for me
(for any film maker!), is to continually try to produce original ideas etc.


If I like my current work, as I think about all those past films
then OK, if I don't then shrug ones shoulders and just
get on with the next film.

Albert....getting on (old like Michael!)

[Ken Wilson]

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:


How do you all assess your work?

Work is initially assessed at the script stage, in the sense that:

"This is going to be a good un..."
However, as we know, no-one sets out to make a bad film, but there are many
bad ones made.(Amateur and Professional.) The film can fail/ fall at many
stages and sometimes initial gut-feelings can be wrong.
A better indication is when at the editing stage and the project is taking
shape. The "It`s a good film; a poor film etc" feelings are usually pretty
accurate by this stage. The first time it is run in it`s entirety on the
computer, is the time when you can get that hairs-on-the-neck moment- if
it has worked!

I think if you have seen many films AND made many films, you have a general
idea where the latest one will fall re: Bronze/ Silver /Gold and mostly can
predict the judges results. Sometimes as we know, there are some discrepancies!

I guess that many of us on this forum are in fact our own worst critics.

Ken.

[Reg Lancaster]

I will pass on to the Management Committee the gist of your feelings about

multiple entries.

However, I have to throw a little cold water on your fevered brows, folks,

for the price rise on entry fees is NOT a surreptitious ploy (nor plot)
to raise funds for the IAC, but a realistic reflection of the cost of
running such a competition.

In 2003 the Competition (as opposed to the Festival) ran at a substantial
deficit. It is responsible financial management to ensure that entry fees

are raised to avoid a repetition of that unwelcome situation.

Last year there were 195 entries, on 8 formats, and to bring such numbers
down
to a reasonable final selection took two long prejudging weekends, involving

20 panellists, plus the projectionists and caterers.

I was a final judge. I only had to sit through the best 38 entries,
which started with an 83 minuter on Friday evening, then 9.30am till six
pm
on the Saturday,and 9.30am till four pm on the Sunday. Then we had to decide
the awards.

Like all the others we then wrote comments too.So final selection films had
nine sets of comments,plus certificate, plus any medals and trophies they
may
have won.

Not bad value for a tenner, one could say.

Reg Lancaster
8607












>

[tom hardwick]

Not bad value for a tenner, one could say.

I'm glad you've laid out the logistics involved in the judging of the IAC
competition films Reg. I'm sure it's not generally realised how many people
are involved, how many miles are driven, how many hours are given in watching,
discussion, writing. Then there's the costs, of paper, stamps, parcelling,
food, accomodation, even head wear.

tom.

[AN]

"Reg Lancaster" <amlancaster@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

for the price rise on entry fees is NOT a surreptitious ploy (nor plot)

to raise funds for the IAC, but a realistic reflection of the cost of
running such a competition.

I've solved all the IAC's financial problems....
....The IAC could buy some Ernie bonds, or put a few quid on the
2.30 at Lingfield!!

Could the IAC ask members for donations to be invested in Ernies
if this were allowed?

I belong to The British Vintage Wireless Society and a few times
each year auctions are held selling off members receivers etc.
The society takes a cut of the proceeds for its funds. Maybe an
auction at every Club/Regional/Nationl IAC meet? (selling cameras/
PC's/software/hardware/etc)

Albert....going, going, gone.........