How do you "sell" a film festival?
- Howard-Smith
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Ned, my suggestion was not for an additional festival but for a new festival to replace BIAFF, inspired by John Simpson’s comments.
- TimStannard
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
[Written, but not posted, before Ned & Howards last comments]
Thanks John for confirming my suspiscions about attendees at (an admittedly very small sample of) student film festivals.
Any BIAFF rebranding, to my mind must include International and must include amateur (or some other indication of non professional). I cannot think of anything better than the British (it takes place in Britain and we like to think of it as the major event of its kind in Britain), International (we accept entries from around the world), Amateur (accurately describes the entries in a literal sense, if nothing else), Film (OK maybe it should be video, but the cinematographers among us look down on that, and we want to promote it as an art form rather than a technology) Festival (it's a celebration)
Nice try, Howard, but "Film & Video Institute Shorts" implies that only people who are members of the Film and Video Institute can enter, so it sounds rather selective. (Personally I'd hate to see a restriction in length. We've had true amateur films that exceed 40 mins - Vermijo, Sarah's War - which, without BIAFF, would never otherwise get into any festival, yet which show not only a passion for film making, but real skill on the part of the maker.
BIAFF is perfect (and I bet it's been going for longer than other BIAFFs you might find). If you must change a name change the IAC (good luck with that, as a registered charity this could be problematic) or FVM (does anyone really care what it;s called - "The IAC Magazine" would seem a good bet to me - at least it would remind members that this is something thet THEY receive.
But names aside - it's a yes from me for student categorie/s. I fully accept Michael's point about them being the "same as us", but I think that because, as they hope to make a career out of it, they are also very different. To have entered a festival and not won against "a bunch of old gits doing it as a hobby" (as they'd no doubt see it) would be an embarrassment - better not to enter. To have done well in the student film maker category would, I suspect, have much more appeal.
BTW, Michael, I would always cross the road to see any of your films, and I hope you might cross the road to see one or two of mine. My point was that the general public wouldn't - they are not part of our film making community.
Kermode is a name that comes up often (if not here then at least in conversations I've had with others). But we have Paul Kittel (possibly not the draw, but wonderfully observant and encouraging)
Not sure about plugging things too much on FilmFreeway. Do we want 4000 entries by people who enter everything that's going? Remember someone (Howard) has to watch and write comments on all of these! We might become a victim of our own success and end up like so many festivals where there is simply not the time to give more than a cursory glance to the majority of entries and no time for comments.
Thanks John for confirming my suspiscions about attendees at (an admittedly very small sample of) student film festivals.
Any BIAFF rebranding, to my mind must include International and must include amateur (or some other indication of non professional). I cannot think of anything better than the British (it takes place in Britain and we like to think of it as the major event of its kind in Britain), International (we accept entries from around the world), Amateur (accurately describes the entries in a literal sense, if nothing else), Film (OK maybe it should be video, but the cinematographers among us look down on that, and we want to promote it as an art form rather than a technology) Festival (it's a celebration)
Nice try, Howard, but "Film & Video Institute Shorts" implies that only people who are members of the Film and Video Institute can enter, so it sounds rather selective. (Personally I'd hate to see a restriction in length. We've had true amateur films that exceed 40 mins - Vermijo, Sarah's War - which, without BIAFF, would never otherwise get into any festival, yet which show not only a passion for film making, but real skill on the part of the maker.
BIAFF is perfect (and I bet it's been going for longer than other BIAFFs you might find). If you must change a name change the IAC (good luck with that, as a registered charity this could be problematic) or FVM (does anyone really care what it;s called - "The IAC Magazine" would seem a good bet to me - at least it would remind members that this is something thet THEY receive.
But names aside - it's a yes from me for student categorie/s. I fully accept Michael's point about them being the "same as us", but I think that because, as they hope to make a career out of it, they are also very different. To have entered a festival and not won against "a bunch of old gits doing it as a hobby" (as they'd no doubt see it) would be an embarrassment - better not to enter. To have done well in the student film maker category would, I suspect, have much more appeal.
BTW, Michael, I would always cross the road to see any of your films, and I hope you might cross the road to see one or two of mine. My point was that the general public wouldn't - they are not part of our film making community.
Kermode is a name that comes up often (if not here then at least in conversations I've had with others). But we have Paul Kittel (possibly not the draw, but wonderfully observant and encouraging)
Not sure about plugging things too much on FilmFreeway. Do we want 4000 entries by people who enter everything that's going? Remember someone (Howard) has to watch and write comments on all of these! We might become a victim of our own success and end up like so many festivals where there is simply not the time to give more than a cursory glance to the majority of entries and no time for comments.
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
- Howard-Smith
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Ok Tim, your points are well made and well taken.
Long live BIAFF.
Long live BIAFF.
- John Simpson
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Do we want 4000 entries by people who enter everything that's going?
Come on be serious! It is actually expensive for non IAC members to enter. But too many films to easily handle would be a good problem imho
Come on be serious! It is actually expensive for non IAC members to enter. But too many films to easily handle would be a good problem imho
- Dave Watterson
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Thanks, guys, this is fascinating ... but not quite the point I wanted.
Much of what you suggest would boost the BIAFF and I hope that when Simon Sumner invited ideas a few months ago, you told him your thoughts. He is also a reader here sometimes ...
When I wrote about "if you can't sell the sausage, sell the sizzle" I really meant that I want to know in this case: what is the "sizzle"? But you are advising on how to make a better "sausage"
I need to promote the BIAFF we have at present (and it may change, I think we are due some info in the next FVM.) I also need to promote the next UNICA ... which will be in a cinema.
Any ideas from your fruitful minds?
Much of what you suggest would boost the BIAFF and I hope that when Simon Sumner invited ideas a few months ago, you told him your thoughts. He is also a reader here sometimes ...
When I wrote about "if you can't sell the sausage, sell the sizzle" I really meant that I want to know in this case: what is the "sizzle"? But you are advising on how to make a better "sausage"
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
I need to promote the BIAFF we have at present (and it may change, I think we are due some info in the next FVM.) I also need to promote the next UNICA ... which will be in a cinema.
Any ideas from your fruitful minds?
- John Simpson
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Here is one idea that most people use nowadays. Keep a mailing list of all the people who entered films or attended and send the emails encouraging them to put a film in again or attend.Dave Watterson wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:15 pm Thanks, guys, this is fascinating ... but not quite the point I wanted.
Be careful what you wish for!
When I wrote about "if you can't sell the sausage, sell the sizzle" I really meant that I want to know in this case: what is the "sizzle"? But you are advising on how to make a better "sausage"![]()
Any ideas from your fruitful minds?
What about a voluntary publicity officer
Would it be an idea to only put uplifting films in Festivals? Sometimes when watching films one can feel ground down and deflated by a film you started watching unsuspectedly, and I find I just want it to end and if I have to stick it out to the end I feel exhausted. Watching those sort of films however technically good does put me off. No sizzle for me
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
John, Tim is not joking about the 4000 entries that many of the FilmFreeway listed festivals get. It's always over 2000, that would be quite a task for poor old Newman to deal with! Of course, the festivals are delighted, the average entry fees range from £10 to £50, most nearer the 50.
- Howard-Smith
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
John Simpson wrote:
John, I often agree with what you say but this suggestion of yours is one of the worst I’ve ever heard. I’m almost speechless! Are you really being serious or is this a wind-up?“Would it be an idea to only put uplifting films in Festivals? Sometimes when watching films one can feel ground down and deflated by a film you started watching unsuspectedly, and I find I just want it to end and if I have to stick it out to the end I feel exhausted. Watching those sort of films however technically good does put me off.”
Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Having run a film festival (listed in the top 100 festivals in the world according to FilmFreeway), I hope I can shed some light.
The 2000-4000 entries is way off in my experience. If you make the entrance fee free... then about 2k+ entries is likely as you'll get everything and everyone. But even when the festival I worked on had an entry fee of £15, we were lucky to get 300+ entries in total. That has improved a little over time, but it's never got anywhere near more than 1000 entries.
Something that BIAFF does that none of the other fests do, is change location each year. This is great for IAC members, but if you want a serious group of new filmmakers to attend, it needs to remain kinda static so that you can build up the audience over time. You might also get buy-in from the local council, etc.
Looking at film festivals I attend (granted the majority of them are genre festivals), they tend to screen feature films alongside short films. Unless BIAFF suddenly finds lots of feature films flooding its way, I doubt this is something they'll do. They also have some excellent industry speakers doing little masterclasses, or talks, Q&A's, etc. At the festival I worked on, we had a Muppeteer do a talk on Puppets in Movies, as well as an author who had written a book on Al Pacino do a talk about how he got the book written, and we had the 1st Assistant Director from the last dozen Bond movies come along and Judge/Present the top awards. Stuff like this gets filmmakers (and non-filmmakers) maybe a little more interested in the event.
One of the biggest strengths of BIAFF is the written feedback. Not that many provide feedback, and when they do, they charge extra. I've always said that BIAFF should only provide critique to IAC members. If a non-member submits a film and then wants feedback, they can always join at the point of film submission. This will increase the membership for sure. I doubt they'll be active members... but you never know.![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
But getting to Dave's point on how to sell the sizzle... I guess you need to know what the sizzle is? For BIAFF, you need to mention the networking aspects (which is always one of the main reasons for going to a film festival in my opinion), the feedback provided to the filmmakers (although not a reason to attend the event), and the venue. This is just off the top of my head about the current setup, but I'm sure things can change.
The 2000-4000 entries is way off in my experience. If you make the entrance fee free... then about 2k+ entries is likely as you'll get everything and everyone. But even when the festival I worked on had an entry fee of £15, we were lucky to get 300+ entries in total. That has improved a little over time, but it's never got anywhere near more than 1000 entries.
Something that BIAFF does that none of the other fests do, is change location each year. This is great for IAC members, but if you want a serious group of new filmmakers to attend, it needs to remain kinda static so that you can build up the audience over time. You might also get buy-in from the local council, etc.
Looking at film festivals I attend (granted the majority of them are genre festivals), they tend to screen feature films alongside short films. Unless BIAFF suddenly finds lots of feature films flooding its way, I doubt this is something they'll do. They also have some excellent industry speakers doing little masterclasses, or talks, Q&A's, etc. At the festival I worked on, we had a Muppeteer do a talk on Puppets in Movies, as well as an author who had written a book on Al Pacino do a talk about how he got the book written, and we had the 1st Assistant Director from the last dozen Bond movies come along and Judge/Present the top awards. Stuff like this gets filmmakers (and non-filmmakers) maybe a little more interested in the event.
One of the biggest strengths of BIAFF is the written feedback. Not that many provide feedback, and when they do, they charge extra. I've always said that BIAFF should only provide critique to IAC members. If a non-member submits a film and then wants feedback, they can always join at the point of film submission. This will increase the membership for sure. I doubt they'll be active members... but you never know.
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
But getting to Dave's point on how to sell the sizzle... I guess you need to know what the sizzle is? For BIAFF, you need to mention the networking aspects (which is always one of the main reasons for going to a film festival in my opinion), the feedback provided to the filmmakers (although not a reason to attend the event), and the venue. This is just off the top of my head about the current setup, but I'm sure things can change.
Only Boring People Get Bored
http://www.fraught.net
http://www.fraught.net
- John Simpson
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
I am serious!!! Is it because I had a bit of a disturbed childhood? I don't know. I know my opinion is as important as anyone elses! And it was asked for. I know the argument for Horror is that it produces adrenaline and endorphins, but not for me. Horror can also be a bit of fun because it is OTT. But I know the 2019 Best in Festival and best photography was "Golnesa" it was no-doubt well made, and a good example of film making, it was not horror, so no adrenalin rush to make it enjoyable for certain people. Is it some sort of voyeurism? It seems to me dark and disturbing films are somehow stereotypically in vogue, "Oh it is dark and disturbing, it must be good! Is it because the film maker wanted us to take some sort of action to correct these injustices? I would love to know the answer to this. I would even make a video to put on YouTube so people like me would also know.Howard-Smith wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:26 pm John Simpson wrote:
“Would it be an idea to only put uplifting films in Festivals? Sometimes when watching films one can feel ground down and deflated by a film you started watching unsuspectedly, and I find I just want it to end and if I have to stick it out to the end I feel exhausted. Watching those sort of films however technically good does put me off.”
John, I often agree with what you say but this suggestion of yours is one of the worst I’ve ever heard. I’m almost speechless! Are you really being serious or is this a wind-up?
Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
I believe that "fraught" is right regarding the entries; our experience with DOCUTAH is that the number has settled at around 300 with 60-70 screened, admittedly this is an all documentary festival but has good recognition and is run by a university. The huge numbers only apply to festivals like Sundance which are seen as industry entry shows and their screening/selection methods remain opaque, accurately described as "Hollywood in the snow". I also support his suggestions regarding the delivery of the written reviews free to IAC members; another reason for joining and also lightens the load on the judges.
I understand John Simpson's concern and it helps for previewing selection if some information about the films is included. Again; we have to do this for DOCUTAH as this is an area of religious sensitivity. I have seen two films I viewed once and was impressed but will never view again! (guess).
ned c
I understand John Simpson's concern and it helps for previewing selection if some information about the films is included. Again; we have to do this for DOCUTAH as this is an area of religious sensitivity. I have seen two films I viewed once and was impressed but will never view again! (guess).
ned c
Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
I have brought it up a few times, but doesn't seem to get the popular vote... no idea why?!
Only Boring People Get Bored
http://www.fraught.net
http://www.fraught.net
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Regarding the doubt thrown on my statement that many festivals get more than 2000 entries, I can assure you that when I get a 'rejection' E Mail (very often I'm sorry to say) the message goes something like this "Thank you for sending us your film which unfortunately we are not able to include ........we had over 2000 entries etc" I read this time and again. Next time I get one I'll post it.
- Dave Watterson
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
BIAFF last year - which was admittedly an unusual one - had 50 submissions on Film Freeway.
- TimStannard
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Re: How do you "sell" a film festival?
Loads to digest here.
Fraught - thanks for your input. With your experience I think you should immediately be seconded to the BIAFF organising commitee. The reason I think BIAFF might receive more entries if word gets around is the fact that all entrants do receive written comments. I like, and have applauded before, your idea of written comments for IAC members only (or alternatively a surcharge for written comments for non-IAC members).
John S, you opinion was indeed sought. My reaction, much like Howards, was "are you serious?". This is not belittling your opinion, but expressing my own disagreement as well as querying why you think that might result in more bums on seats.
Fraught touches on a point which may be worth exploring - that of genre festivals. I believe he is mainly involved in horror. These, of course, are great for horror fans. They know what they will get (even if they cannot be assured of the quality). A "general" film festival such a BIAFF, does not hold that sort of specific appeal. No-one knows what they are going to be able to see and therefore, perhaps ironically, the appeal is reduced. Horror film fans who go to horror film festivals are unlikely to attend BIAFF. They are not fans of amateur film (however skilled) but fans of horror films.
A student section might well attract a certain audience to that section of BIAFF. Should we perhaps explore other, less general, categories, if not for awards at least for screenings? Even among ardent attendees there are people who are interested in documentaries but not dramas, those who are interested in comedies but not wildlife, travel but not transportation. Personally I like a mix, but that's not the case for everyone.
(Off topic)
John: As a judge on the panel for Golnesa, I can assure you that the dark subject matter had nothing to do with the award. Once a film reaches 5 stars, all the technical and craft stuff is a given and it comes down to the impact it has on the viewer - which, of course, is rather more subjective than objective. I cannot speak for the other judges, but whilst it is far from the sort of film I would normally watch, it kept me spellbound throughout as I really wanted to know what happened and to understand the thinking and emotion behind each character's action.
I can only contrast my reaction to this with the Korean winner a few years back (girl and a mirror) which was equally slow and "meaningful" but which did absolutely nothing for me. I've spoken to others (including judges) who were spellbound by that.
Fraught - thanks for your input. With your experience I think you should immediately be seconded to the BIAFF organising commitee. The reason I think BIAFF might receive more entries if word gets around is the fact that all entrants do receive written comments. I like, and have applauded before, your idea of written comments for IAC members only (or alternatively a surcharge for written comments for non-IAC members).
John S, you opinion was indeed sought. My reaction, much like Howards, was "are you serious?". This is not belittling your opinion, but expressing my own disagreement as well as querying why you think that might result in more bums on seats.
Fraught touches on a point which may be worth exploring - that of genre festivals. I believe he is mainly involved in horror. These, of course, are great for horror fans. They know what they will get (even if they cannot be assured of the quality). A "general" film festival such a BIAFF, does not hold that sort of specific appeal. No-one knows what they are going to be able to see and therefore, perhaps ironically, the appeal is reduced. Horror film fans who go to horror film festivals are unlikely to attend BIAFF. They are not fans of amateur film (however skilled) but fans of horror films.
A student section might well attract a certain audience to that section of BIAFF. Should we perhaps explore other, less general, categories, if not for awards at least for screenings? Even among ardent attendees there are people who are interested in documentaries but not dramas, those who are interested in comedies but not wildlife, travel but not transportation. Personally I like a mix, but that's not the case for everyone.
(Off topic)
John: As a judge on the panel for Golnesa, I can assure you that the dark subject matter had nothing to do with the award. Once a film reaches 5 stars, all the technical and craft stuff is a given and it comes down to the impact it has on the viewer - which, of course, is rather more subjective than objective. I cannot speak for the other judges, but whilst it is far from the sort of film I would normally watch, it kept me spellbound throughout as I really wanted to know what happened and to understand the thinking and emotion behind each character's action.
I can only contrast my reaction to this with the Korean winner a few years back (girl and a mirror) which was equally slow and "meaningful" but which did absolutely nothing for me. I've spoken to others (including judges) who were spellbound by that.
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it