Video Clubs and Future?
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Video Clubs and Future?
After reading Ned's posting on the amateur and Professional thread as regards video club, he made a wonderful statement: "Management Burn Out" in clubs.
Again a topic which spins around. I have a rather sceptical view and a frustrating experimental take on this.
After 10 years I took the plunge to rejoin again by request. Armed with wealth of experience in editing, production and working on Apple software and working on some video productions with the 25 to 30 age groups.
With this sort of ammunition one would think as a new member I would fit in?. A beautiful location club with all the amenity to attract new members. Very friendly members but after a few meetings one could see no rocking the boat allowed. I put ideas forward and made strong comments written and verbal after gathering information from other members who would not speak up. The thing that really got to me was the constant showing of video every meeting. Then again I guess this is what members want?. The penny dropped when one is not welcome when I offered to help regards editing and not being able to do a video production and show how to do things better. I was amazed how members sat and watched a 30 minute holiday video. I was thinking of offering my service to edit the video as it was very good in places.
After getting a reality check from the chairman regards a comment I made while watching a cine film and upsetting a well respected member of the club. The exit door was shouting at me.
In general members should support each other and take on board any comments made. I did enjoy the experience. Unless clubs alter with the few members they have and work on making good outstanding videos things will decline or "Burn Out".
Regards the IAC in clubs?. I was surprised they still were around as they were well known in the 60s.
I still praise and support video clubs who are having a rough time, but I wish they would take their blinkers off and support any new members with good background knowledge. A club has some wonderful knowledged people who have been with the club for years. But the 25 to 30 plus are at present not interested.
Again a topic which spins around. I have a rather sceptical view and a frustrating experimental take on this.
After 10 years I took the plunge to rejoin again by request. Armed with wealth of experience in editing, production and working on Apple software and working on some video productions with the 25 to 30 age groups.
With this sort of ammunition one would think as a new member I would fit in?. A beautiful location club with all the amenity to attract new members. Very friendly members but after a few meetings one could see no rocking the boat allowed. I put ideas forward and made strong comments written and verbal after gathering information from other members who would not speak up. The thing that really got to me was the constant showing of video every meeting. Then again I guess this is what members want?. The penny dropped when one is not welcome when I offered to help regards editing and not being able to do a video production and show how to do things better. I was amazed how members sat and watched a 30 minute holiday video. I was thinking of offering my service to edit the video as it was very good in places.
After getting a reality check from the chairman regards a comment I made while watching a cine film and upsetting a well respected member of the club. The exit door was shouting at me.
In general members should support each other and take on board any comments made. I did enjoy the experience. Unless clubs alter with the few members they have and work on making good outstanding videos things will decline or "Burn Out".
Regards the IAC in clubs?. I was surprised they still were around as they were well known in the 60s.
I still praise and support video clubs who are having a rough time, but I wish they would take their blinkers off and support any new members with good background knowledge. A club has some wonderful knowledged people who have been with the club for years. But the 25 to 30 plus are at present not interested.
- TimStannard
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Frank, again your post prompts me to respond partially in support of your comments and partially to argue against them.
Ned's comment about "management burn out" as I understand it is a comment that a few clubs which are being successful are so because they have a dynamic management team and that team can only keep driving the club with enthusisam for a limited time.
This is my third year as Chairman at Staines Video Makers, and at the beginning of my term I stated that I thought three years was enough and fresh blood should take over. (Southern Script in FVM got totally the wrong end of the script and translated this as indicating I wanted to give up as I was tired of it. How wrong! My point, presumably not expressed clearly enough, was that I wanted to give up before I became stale - I'd just created my third annual programme in a row and realised that it was "more of the same" and I thought someone else should have a go.) The difficulty,of course, is finding a replacement - note ANY replacement, not just a suitable one.
I mention the above only to indicate that in many clubs, possibly not Frank's, the management team aren't necessarily blind to the need to develop and encourage fresh blood, but it's often the members who do not want to get involved but actually WANT to come along each week and sit down and watch videos.
This leads on to my second point. As chairman, whilst I may wish to broaden the scope and ambition of the club, my first duty is to provide the existing members (who, after all, keep the club afloat) with what they want. If a large proportion want to sit and watch videos each week, then that is what I, and the management team, need to provide. There was an audible groan among members who had not read the club's Facebook page or website last night, that the travelogue competition had been cancelled due to lack of entries (Indeed! the mainstay of club competitions) and we were instead holding a technical evening looking at the effects of different amounts of light and adjusting apertures and white balance on different kit from 1/4" 3CCD camcorders through DSLRs to a BMD CinemaCamera - a practical session (which, to be honest, made most of us realise we needed several evenings before we could come to any conclusions.)
For those who really wanted to learn more about film making the evening was invaluable. If I did this too often, we'd be down to six members, although I suspect that these are the evenings which may have more appeal to new members.
My final point is about your acceptance within the club. We have a member who joined a year or so ago. Up until very recently he had watched many members' films and offered what I'm sure he saw as helpful and constructive criticism. Now the problem is that he never had anything to say about a film which wasn't negative. People will accept a few comments like this, but when that is all one receives, one starts to feel negative towards that person. Even that would be acceptable if the person concerned showed a couple of films of their own making which demonstrated competence. The fact is this person has never showed anything he has made! No wonder the members started to get a bit unhappy about his comments. Recently, unprovoked as far as I'm aware, he made a couple of positive comments about one or two films and the members suddenly see him in a different light.
The way I read your posts, Frank, I only see negative comments about clubs, and whilst they may be well deserved, they cannot help endear you to the club you joined. Your comments about "showing how to do things better" suggests to me someone who knows what he is doing but could equally be seen as a criticism of the management and/or membership of the club you joined from a "know all". My attitude would be "Great, we will always welcome fresh blood on the committee" and I'd probably be holding your arm halfway up your back demanding you accept nomination as my replacement as Chairman. But clubs with a more institutionalised management might prefer to see some evidence of your "doing things better" before inviting you to help out. They might see your comments as a blatant insult rather than a suggestion for improvement.
Ned's comment about "management burn out" as I understand it is a comment that a few clubs which are being successful are so because they have a dynamic management team and that team can only keep driving the club with enthusisam for a limited time.
This is my third year as Chairman at Staines Video Makers, and at the beginning of my term I stated that I thought three years was enough and fresh blood should take over. (Southern Script in FVM got totally the wrong end of the script and translated this as indicating I wanted to give up as I was tired of it. How wrong! My point, presumably not expressed clearly enough, was that I wanted to give up before I became stale - I'd just created my third annual programme in a row and realised that it was "more of the same" and I thought someone else should have a go.) The difficulty,of course, is finding a replacement - note ANY replacement, not just a suitable one.
I mention the above only to indicate that in many clubs, possibly not Frank's, the management team aren't necessarily blind to the need to develop and encourage fresh blood, but it's often the members who do not want to get involved but actually WANT to come along each week and sit down and watch videos.
This leads on to my second point. As chairman, whilst I may wish to broaden the scope and ambition of the club, my first duty is to provide the existing members (who, after all, keep the club afloat) with what they want. If a large proportion want to sit and watch videos each week, then that is what I, and the management team, need to provide. There was an audible groan among members who had not read the club's Facebook page or website last night, that the travelogue competition had been cancelled due to lack of entries (Indeed! the mainstay of club competitions) and we were instead holding a technical evening looking at the effects of different amounts of light and adjusting apertures and white balance on different kit from 1/4" 3CCD camcorders through DSLRs to a BMD CinemaCamera - a practical session (which, to be honest, made most of us realise we needed several evenings before we could come to any conclusions.)
For those who really wanted to learn more about film making the evening was invaluable. If I did this too often, we'd be down to six members, although I suspect that these are the evenings which may have more appeal to new members.
My final point is about your acceptance within the club. We have a member who joined a year or so ago. Up until very recently he had watched many members' films and offered what I'm sure he saw as helpful and constructive criticism. Now the problem is that he never had anything to say about a film which wasn't negative. People will accept a few comments like this, but when that is all one receives, one starts to feel negative towards that person. Even that would be acceptable if the person concerned showed a couple of films of their own making which demonstrated competence. The fact is this person has never showed anything he has made! No wonder the members started to get a bit unhappy about his comments. Recently, unprovoked as far as I'm aware, he made a couple of positive comments about one or two films and the members suddenly see him in a different light.
The way I read your posts, Frank, I only see negative comments about clubs, and whilst they may be well deserved, they cannot help endear you to the club you joined. Your comments about "showing how to do things better" suggests to me someone who knows what he is doing but could equally be seen as a criticism of the management and/or membership of the club you joined from a "know all". My attitude would be "Great, we will always welcome fresh blood on the committee" and I'd probably be holding your arm halfway up your back demanding you accept nomination as my replacement as Chairman. But clubs with a more institutionalised management might prefer to see some evidence of your "doing things better" before inviting you to help out. They might see your comments as a blatant insult rather than a suggestion for improvement.
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Yes it is on a negative side. But I did show them my work and went into details of how and why I made the videos. If I lived around the corner from the video club, I would have been a good boy and said nothing.
I learned my skill of how a club should be run from the Ealing and Boston Manor Club. When Alan Crammer was chairman he said: "I always remember it's your club and if there is no support I will shut it down."
Like I said I only joined because I was asked.
I could have stayed and weathered the storm,but my video work and working with others is more rewarding at present.
Yes it is difficult to make new programmes every meeting and one will repeat oneself.
I think all points you have made are valid and very true.
I will close my debate on the how and why on video clubs.
Please note I have kicked off 2014 with two different subjects and my aim is not to offend any person. As my explanation and opinion are sometimes regarded as offensive.![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
I learned my skill of how a club should be run from the Ealing and Boston Manor Club. When Alan Crammer was chairman he said: "I always remember it's your club and if there is no support I will shut it down."
Like I said I only joined because I was asked.
I could have stayed and weathered the storm,but my video work and working with others is more rewarding at present.
Yes it is difficult to make new programmes every meeting and one will repeat oneself.
I think all points you have made are valid and very true.
I will close my debate on the how and why on video clubs.
Please note I have kicked off 2014 with two different subjects and my aim is not to offend any person. As my explanation and opinion are sometimes regarded as offensive.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
I don't think any of the contributions here will offend but rather stimulate discussion. Will Tim find a willing successor? Will Frank find a group that welcomes him or is he perhaps all ready in one? Thanks to both for sharing their thoughts.
For many of us film making is a collaborative art and requires skills in many disciplines which are served by a group of people. I enjoy being a part of an active film making group; there is a dynamic that develops creativity and a will to make something worthwhile. The problem that many clubs face is what to make; a dearth of scripts and ideas outside the conventional holiday/family films. Then run a script writing contest in the local area with an offer to make the winning film; have the club as a production unit and the local inhabitants as a source of ideas. Here we have made a series of films written by locals who are not interested in the nuts and bolts of film making but have creative ideas that they don't know how to transfer from idea to screen. You can check out one of our early productions from the main IAC website it is "Hey Kiddo" along with a short write up on how it got made. We have sent off two more productions to this year's BIAFF. Perhaps a thought to galvanize a club into action?
ned c
For many of us film making is a collaborative art and requires skills in many disciplines which are served by a group of people. I enjoy being a part of an active film making group; there is a dynamic that develops creativity and a will to make something worthwhile. The problem that many clubs face is what to make; a dearth of scripts and ideas outside the conventional holiday/family films. Then run a script writing contest in the local area with an offer to make the winning film; have the club as a production unit and the local inhabitants as a source of ideas. Here we have made a series of films written by locals who are not interested in the nuts and bolts of film making but have creative ideas that they don't know how to transfer from idea to screen. You can check out one of our early productions from the main IAC website it is "Hey Kiddo" along with a short write up on how it got made. We have sent off two more productions to this year's BIAFF. Perhaps a thought to galvanize a club into action?
ned c
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Thanks Ned for those kind words. The funny part with my club experience???? I had a big cine night penciled in on a club winter night. With cine films I made years ago all telling action stories. I even invited friends and people my ages who were and would be interested to joining. I even worked out a behind the scene rota to visit the club once they joined, as we all belong to another club non-video.
But like you perhaps? computer is the game now.![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
But like you perhaps? computer is the game now.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
- TimStannard
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Just to back up what Ned says - I hope no one will take offence and that poeple will continue to add their own thoughts. I don't believe the clubs are in crisis as such - many of them can continue providing the same service until the last member drops dead, but I do believe they (and the IAC) are struggling to move forward and all avenues should be explored.
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
The choice of the direction a video clubs takes is one that ultimately decides if a club survives and thrives or declines and ceases to exist. In general terms the older the membership profile the greater the resistance to change and acceptance of new ideas. The day of the traditional video club, like oil, has peaked and is now in managed decline.
I don't know what the answers there are, as the programme/activities of video clubs with an older age profile are very much different from those of the young filmmaker. In other words any bridge between the two age groups is no longer there.To say the Chairman should cater for the needs of the existing membership is fine and is an example of this managed decline. On the other hand if a Chairman wishes to try and promote the club, with an older membership profile, what choices does he have?
I don't know what the answers there are, as the programme/activities of video clubs with an older age profile are very much different from those of the young filmmaker. In other words any bridge between the two age groups is no longer there.To say the Chairman should cater for the needs of the existing membership is fine and is an example of this managed decline. On the other hand if a Chairman wishes to try and promote the club, with an older membership profile, what choices does he have?
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
This topic seems to go along in stages. Reading all the posts and me being negative is the opposite. I'm outspoken and I see things as they are. I have no interest in being in a club and taking over any post in the club.
My main aim is to support new ideas.
Get the club members moving from the constant system of sitting and viewing.
Tell members how to improve making video's and help in any from to improve the video.
What I dont like.....When members cant see the light.
In one aspect I'm glad that I dont belong to the video club brigade. I find working with individual group of people more rewarding. They want to learn and improve. Some are very good and would be a asset to any video club.
I think the day of cine clubs was more fun. We only had one product as a showing tool.....Film
My main aim is to support new ideas.
Get the club members moving from the constant system of sitting and viewing.
Tell members how to improve making video's and help in any from to improve the video.
What I dont like.....When members cant see the light.
In one aspect I'm glad that I dont belong to the video club brigade. I find working with individual group of people more rewarding. They want to learn and improve. Some are very good and would be a asset to any video club.
I think the day of cine clubs was more fun. We only had one product as a showing tool.....Film
- TimStannard
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- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:20 pm
- Location: Surrey
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
If the Chairman/management committee caters only for the needs of existing members, I'd agree. If one wants only to attract a new more youthful membership then the best bet is probably to junk the club and start a new one.edin wrote:To say the Chairman should cater for the needs of the existing membership is fine and is an example of this managed decline.
But what most of us are trying to achieve is not managed decline but managed change - and some clubs are having a great deal of success at this. Interestingly, from what I see, those clubs tend to have existing members with a lot of energy and time to devote to others (eg Reading running courses in getting started in making videos, from which they manage to retain half of their students as members), those whose emphasis is on groups of members working as teams and (for some reason) those who have several women actively involved in running the club (as opposed to helping ot their husbands or making the tea).
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
- Dave Watterson
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Bristol manage the same trick as the Reading club. They organised a course by guest lecturer Don Fairweather. That brought in lots of people whose fee for the course included a year's membership of the club. A fair number have stayed on and become a centre of energy.
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
At Preston we struggle to attract and retain new members.
Previously we used to be sat down watching movies for the vast percentage of our Sept to April season.
Then we introduced more practical evenings and the members who just wanted to watch movies gradually left.
A few years ago when a new member came we changed the evening and just showed them some club movies............I hated this, they did not want that, they wanted to talk and ask questions..........generally they never came again.
We would love to know a magic formula to gather and retain new members, but now we are readily acceptable of change and a couple of weeks ago we had a new guy visit, we changed what we were doing to cater for what he was looking for.........he did not visit last time but did say he had something else on, so let's see what happens next Thurs.
Our problem is not our programme for it is similar to many other clubs, 30 week season, 3 competition evenings, 2 socials v other clubs, 1AGM, 2 evenings of season planning, 2 regular competitions with other clubs and the remainder, practically, watching movies, social, experimental and guests.
So what are we doing wrong????
Previously we used to be sat down watching movies for the vast percentage of our Sept to April season.
Then we introduced more practical evenings and the members who just wanted to watch movies gradually left.
A few years ago when a new member came we changed the evening and just showed them some club movies............I hated this, they did not want that, they wanted to talk and ask questions..........generally they never came again.
We would love to know a magic formula to gather and retain new members, but now we are readily acceptable of change and a couple of weeks ago we had a new guy visit, we changed what we were doing to cater for what he was looking for.........he did not visit last time but did say he had something else on, so let's see what happens next Thurs.
Our problem is not our programme for it is similar to many other clubs, 30 week season, 3 competition evenings, 2 socials v other clubs, 1AGM, 2 evenings of season planning, 2 regular competitions with other clubs and the remainder, practically, watching movies, social, experimental and guests.
So what are we doing wrong????
Col Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb
- TimStannard
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Far be it from me to suggest we at Staines are doing any better than you at attracting/retaining new members but - where are your workshops, your practical evenings? When someone (it can be a member or a guest speaker) gives a talk or a demonstration about some aspect of film making? This doesn't even need to be an expert - he/she is just needed as a catalyst to get the members discussiing stuff. And what about a session where you actually try to film something (probably to be edited later at home)? Club "Make a film in an evening", though often hard work to arrange, are generally well received by film makers and "the watchers" alike.col lamb wrote: Our problem is not our programme for it is similar to many other clubs, 30 week season, 3 competition evenings, 2 socials v other clubs, 1AGM, 2 evenings of season planning, 2 regular competitions with other clubs and the remainder, practically, watching movies, social, experimental and guests.
So what are we doing wrong????
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Tim
Workshops have included, editing techniques (all levels). photoshop, after effects, lighting, using you camcorder, creative shooting, sound, networks, storage and backup in short if members have a problem we sort out a solution.
We have a script generation evening, script development, others to develop and then shoot the script and edit the movie.
So far this year, 1 competition, 1practical on low light shooting, 1 quiz, 1 script ideas and development, 1 tech q&a
Workshops have included, editing techniques (all levels). photoshop, after effects, lighting, using you camcorder, creative shooting, sound, networks, storage and backup in short if members have a problem we sort out a solution.
We have a script generation evening, script development, others to develop and then shoot the script and edit the movie.
So far this year, 1 competition, 1practical on low light shooting, 1 quiz, 1 script ideas and development, 1 tech q&a
Col Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb
- TimStannard
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- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:20 pm
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Re: Video Clubs and Future?
That's what I'd have expected, but your list of what your programme included didn't mention any of those (and you'd said you'd tried practical evenings and members had started to drift).col lamb wrote:Tim
Workshops have included, ...
What you've just described sounds like a club I'd join
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it
Re: Video Clubs and Future?
Tim
I class the workshops as part of the Practical evenings and for the last one those members who have laptops brought them in and we tried a session of refining editing techniques.
The previous one was on low light shooting, we have an ex BBC cameraman amongst our members and he led the evening.
We have a Uni in the City that does movie related courses and have some students visit. But they are only after using us for their own ends, they do not see that they are part of a team. We do go along with them from time to time but they only stay for a season.
As I keep saying I do not know what the answer is.
I class the workshops as part of the Practical evenings and for the last one those members who have laptops brought them in and we tried a session of refining editing techniques.
The previous one was on low light shooting, we have an ex BBC cameraman amongst our members and he led the evening.
We have a Uni in the City that does movie related courses and have some students visit. But they are only after using us for their own ends, they do not see that they are part of a team. We do go along with them from time to time but they only stay for a season.
As I keep saying I do not know what the answer is.
Col Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb
Preston, Lancashire.
FCPX, Edius6.02, and Premiere CS 5.5 user.
Find me on Facebook, Colin Lamb