Fnal Cut - goodnight?

[ned c]

I have used Final Cut Pro since V2 and am now at Final Cut Studio 3; with the advent of FCX I have to make a decision about my future editing software. Apple FCX is completely new software, not an upgrade, with a new GUI and several of the traditional abilities of FCP deleted and above all, not backward compatible with my existing FCP projects. The consensus is that FCX is an upgraded iMovie and has been met with a firestorm of complaint from professional editors on the Internet. Apple has all ready promised to restore the absent capabilities but why buy a semi-crippled software at V1 which needs substantial development that may or may not be delivered and no doubt at added cost.

Obviously I keep FCS3 but it is no longer supported so it is decision time; where to from here? My Mac is Intel quad core; 8GB RAM; 3 TB internal raid, Black Magic Intensity Card. The options are; Avid Media Composer, Adobe CS5 or Media 100; comments/suggestions please.

We use PCs for office work and my PC is old with inferior graphics ability; I want to upgrade and install Edius/Vegas. What spec should I aim for? I want to purchase off the shelf from Dell or HP; no I have no wish to build a computer! Suggestions please.

Some thoughts on Apple. It seems that Apple is moving away from the creative user market to consumer devices that use specifically Apple software and Apps sourced only from the Apple Store or iTunes. Obviously a great way to make money but time for creative users to begin to look elsewhere. My granddaughter is at film school where their post production is based entirely on FCS 3; I look forward to hearing what their future will be!

ned c

[Mike Shaw]

On a lesser scale, users of Liquid had a similar problem when it became EOL after frequent promises of a new version, or a new generation product. We were offered Media Composer 4.5 for virtually the same price as Edius or Adobe - that is around 20% of the normal Media Composer price. It was a no-brainer - I took up the offer, and am now very happily (as an amateur) using Media Composer 5.5. The boxed version comes with a suite of programes, including Boris Continuum and SonicFire Pro and Avid DVD. I have tried - played with but never owned - Premiere, and have an older vesrion of After Effects: MC in my opinion knocks them both stone cold for its power and capability. So much so I had a PC specially built to run it 'properly' to the Avid spec. It does run on lesser spec machines - I ran it for a year or so on my Liquid machine without any problems. The big point of this of course, is that as you know - MC also runs on a Mac.

Support is phenomenal: visit the Avid Forums - there's an MC Forum for PC people and an Avid forum for Mac people - and you'll see what I mean. (They've even created a forum specially for those emigrating from Liquid to help them make the switch). Any problem or query is answered virtually by return - usually well within the hour - in a very professional and very friendly way. The forum rules are quite strict - no flaming of course, but also no speculation on what may be in the pipeline and so on. Have a look, too, at the hundreds (literally) of excellent video tuitorials available.

MC, as the industry standard and used by Holywood Studios, is obviously way overpowered for my humble needs - but I know that whatever trick I want to pull, whatever correction or effect I want to apply, it's there, waiting. From colour correction through to motion tracking (as an integral part of virtually every relevant effect), a superb animating titler (Marquee) as well as a 'static' titler - MC has it all. And its customisation - unbelievable.

I'd have no hesitation whatsoever in recommending MC over Adobe or Edius, although it has to be said, both those alternatives are also very capable and not 'slouch' programs. But once you've seen the incredible built in capabilties of MC, I think it is well worth the additional cost over the alternatives.

As a Liquid user, I had to forget all the workflows and editing techniques I'd learned over the years and start afresh: the MC way is different. But it has been more than worth while: MC is (now) much more enjoyable to use. How its workflows differ from those in FCP I do not know.

[ned c]

Hi Mike, thanks for your comments. Media Composer is high on my list and it's reassuring to know that it is well supported. Unfortunately I missed the Avid special offer of MC to FC editors for $995. I contacted Adobe to discuss CS5 with a "live chat"' and all the person wanted to do was sell me the software rather than answer my questions. Meanwhile the storm over FCX rages on!

ned c

[Michael Slowe]

Ned, we've already discussed this privately but I'd remind you that in my opinion (and in many editor's opinion on your side of the Atlantic), Media 100 is well worth re considering. I have used it for over fourteen years since I switched from 16mm film editing and it has been fantastic for me. It has a workflow that is the nearest to film editing of all the systems, it is intuitive, easy to use and well up to date being able to handle almost every codec currently in use. For titling and FX it has the new Boris Red bundled with the current version which you can access direct from the timeline as you can all the various features - unlike FCP where you have to go through more actions. Boris (Media 100 owners) support is brilliant, and I'm confident you would do well with it. Tom Hardwick uses the Grass Valley Edius system I believe, it may be useful for you to consult his opinion - his stuff looks great. Mind you, half the world uses FCP, I can't imagine they'll not have a rethink.

[col lamb]

Ned

I use both CS 5.5 and Edius 6.02

Edius is more stable and for the most part as good as CS 5.5, its major drawback for me is the editing modes, CS5.5 is miles better with ripple, rolling, slip etc modes which are available at the click of the mouse.

CS5.5 is way faster to use, I can trim, preview and place on timeline far faster than the same task in Edius.

Edius renders to a media file faster and its DVD/Blu-ray authoring is adequate but nowhere near as comprehensive as Encore which comes with Premiere if only Premiere is purchased.

So it is a close call between the two.

If you just do straighforward edit with minimal effects then Edius Neo 3 would be my own recomended software it does all Edius 6 does except that its output options are less, that said it still has all the MPG/h264/WMV options most want in a nice cheap package.

I'd download the trial versions and see how they work, on a PC CS5.5 will only work with a 64 bit operating system

Good luck

[ned c]

Thanks for the support and suggestions both on and off line here on the Forum. I received very positive help from Avid and found a software supplier still offering the special FCP to Media Composer deal so have gone ahead with that and now face the learning curve of a new software. Michael; hardly had I placed the order for the MC software than an e-mail arrived from Boris offering Media 100 for $595!! Obviously the software houses are cashing in on Apple's inept and messy introduction of FCPX. Colin; I think that Edius Neo 3 on the office PC will be my back-up.

Why am I changing? I have a number of stored FCP7 edit projects on external drives for clients held for possibler future changes that cannot be opened in FCPX but they can be converted to MC projects and so "future proofed". I work with a sound engineer and send all my audio to him for post work; FCPX makes this impossible. Will the old FCP7 work under Lion, if there are new codecs introduced obviously these will not be supported in FCP7. Apple have created a very uncertain future for FCP users.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

ned c

[John C]

I am a PC person.

I changed from Avid Liquid Pro to Edius 6 Pro when Avid stopped supporting Liquid.

The potential for Edius if you have the skills is great....see some of the tutorials on youTube and grass valley website.

As far as computer spec is concerned speak to Ringo at DVC (David Clarke computers). www.dvc.uk.com
He has built me two machines over the last few years and I am sure he will willingly answer your questions. What is more he knows what he is talking about.

John C.

[Mike Shaw]

I'm sure you won't be sorry with your decision to go with MC Ned. The capability and the support - second to none. And I've experienced a few of the editing communities now. Even the simplest most basic 'beginner's questions' are treated with respect, and answered (very) quickly. It flattens that learning curve more than you may think!

Enjoy!

[col lamb]

Ned

I missed your request for PC upgrade.

I build and modify my own and also for others and have a live posting within this forum on PC specification, please see that for more details.

Your local PC repair company in the USA should be able to supply and fix the components necessary to your existing PC.

My signature below includes the specification for my own PC, you cannot do much betterthan to replicate it, the choice of processor being the limiting factor and any from the intel i7 9xx family will work more than adequately for Edius 6 or Edius Neo 3 or for CS5

Also have a look at the Videoguys website as theyhave a lot of very useful information, look for their Guides and in particular the DIY article, not that you should build it yourself butwill provide more guidance, at the moment avoid any use of the SandyBridge processor for editing systems.

[Geoff Addis]

The King is dead, long live the King.

I am not a Mac fanatic and I have expounded the virtues of Edius for many years, I also have PP CS5 and Vegas 9 and have run these NLEs on both a MacPro and on my custom built PC. I have long criticised the old FCP for poor real time performance with the need to render many transitions or filters/fix before being able to view them in full resolution and at full frame rate. FCP X has addressed this problem. There has been loud and critical condemnation of the new software, but in my opinion much of this relates to how the new FCP will integrate into multi-access environments such as broadcasting and major post production studios plus the fact that it is not backward compatible with earlier versions of FCP. The criticism is justified in many areas, but does it really apply to the type of production environment that most of us work in. I think not. Sure the new FCP is not backwards compatible, but just because you have the new version of FCP does not mean that an earlier version cannot reside and work alongside (but not concurrently) on your Mac to address legacy projects. The new methodology might require that a new, but short learning curve has to be negotiated and new keyboard shortcuts learnt, but it seems to me that after playing with FCP X for a week since its introduction things are not so far removed that crossover from the old to the new is going to be particularly painful. If Apple keep their promises, updates should be more frequent, and currently missing feature such as multi-camera editing and limited sound manipulation will soon be addressed. Comment has been made that it is not possible to view the output on a proper video monitor and that it is not possible to interface with tape based machines, but this isn't possible with earlier versions of FCP unless you have the appropriate third party hardware/software drivers and I am sure these will be available for FCP X in the near future. Don't forget FCP X can interface to SD and HDV cameras/recorders via Firewire.

FCP X has excelent media management and integrates well with Motion 5 that is available as a separate, low cost download. It seems that FCP X's transitions and Filters are based around Motion templates that may be easily adapted to meet the editor’s needs.

So to summarise, don't dismiss FCP X, it has great potential for further development; I f you do get FCP X or want to know more about its use then I highly recommend downloading a copy of Steve Martin's (Ripple Training) excellent training tutorials.

If you do decide to change to another NLE, then both Edius and PP CS5.5 have a lot to offer; I personally find Edius to be the faster and both appear to be stable. PP CS5 integrates well with the other programs within the Adobe production suite, but Edius comes with more transitions and FX and is less demanding of the computer, if that's important. I think that the PP CS5 user interface is more akin to FCP than Edius and I don'tshare the criticism from some FCP editors that PP is 'quirky' or lacking in any way, certainly not in the way that most of us would use it, after all, the BBC bought 2000 copies of PP CS5 shortly after its release - they also use Edius. I cannot comment on Avid as I have never used it.

[Mike Shaw]

Avid has produced a pdf document of the spec for a machine to run Media Composer: MC will run on lesser specced machines, but for 'official' Avid support, it must meet that minimum spec. I had a machine built to that spec over here by DVC at Hove. The Avid Forums, however, will answer questions and help users of MC on whatever machine it happens to be running, although of course, the further away from the official spec, the more likely niggling little problems will occur. Their answers, I might add, are not of the form 'upgrade your machine' (as with some other editing forums I've been on), but more in the way of work-arounds. I ran MC for a year or so on a well 'under-specced' machine - the biggest 'below-spec' item being the graphics card. Anomolies did occur. Now, with a spec that more than meets the Avid 'minimum', MC runs like a dream.

I don't know FCP, but I'm sure that any machine that can run that will also run MC fairly satisfactorily: MC runs on a Mac as well as a PC of course (I guess different installation versions!).

I must admit on one or two occasions I have switched to using Liquid - or even Avid Studio - for a very quick straightforward edit. I know of one or two over here who use Edius and MC in combination - probably because Edius is more straightforward than MC for general stuff: they create the 'special stuff' in MC then export it to Edius. The incredible power within MC to handle virtually any requirement inevitably makes it a bit more complex to use, and there are times when complexity can be a hindrance.

[Mike Shaw]

Ned - I came across this -
http://shop.avid.com/store/product.do;j ... 2336367888

It may help and seems to be reduced in price to a reasonable amount.

[ned c]

First, Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Mike; I will be ordering the training software, thanks for the connection.

Geoff; I agree with your comments that for the majority of single users FCPX will meet their needs and at some time in the future will probably meet mine. However; the present version will not work for me in view of my method of passing sound on to a specialist sound editor. I also work with an FCP editor in the UK and we both agree that if we were starting again we would not have started with FCP as it has always had asset management problems and the various fixes have made it very clunky. I am also concerned about the potential impact of Lion on FP7; one thing we know is that Apple do not reveal their full hand until they release their upgrade/new software and perhaps unfairly I get the feeling that a number of changes are more to their benefit than the users.

Thanks again for an interesting discussion and sharing of useful information.

ned c

[Geoff Addis]

For any of you who may be concerned about the recent changes to FCP and possible alternative NLE programs, you may find the following of interest.

A recent post on the GV Edius forum included this demonstration of Edius's real time performance, go to this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHXOf8Acsmo

David Clarke from DVC also posted a video showing how a Bluray may be be created from the timeline in Edius in less than real time on a PC using the latest Intel processors and suitable motherboard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd5Ighxa1JM&hd=1

Geoff.