IAC DISCUSSION FORUMS

Dave Watterson wrote:An email exchange raised an interesting question ... we often encourage film makers to get involved with clubs, for the help, support and encouragement those can offer. But are there disadvantages too?
Dave

Young Werner was voted out of his club !
Werner is a young filmmaker. He is very talented and intelligent. He is a psychiatrist and he loves making films as a hobby. I encouraged him to take part in the British and American Amateur Film Festivals. His last film was one of the best in the National Belgian Competition. His film is even selected vor UNICA 2009 ! Last Friday he was with me. I had translated his film for Guernsey. We had a chat about filmmaking and about being a member of a club.

Some months ago he was still a member of the oldest and perhaps most reputable club in the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium. The best filmmakers join this club. Maybe you know some of them : Tony Jacobs, Paul Lacroix, François Verhulsel etc.. Every Monday evening there are 40 to 50 members. That's exceptional, isn't it ? Most of them are in their fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. Werner didn't feel happy there. I don't know what really happened and maybe this is not so important. I only know that Werner didn't attend the clubmeetings very often. But ... they voted him out of the club ! Young Werner didn't get the chance to ask why.

Views on filmmaking are totally different
When Werner was with me last Friday he told me that there are disadvantages of being in a club. He said that he missed friends who can take similar views on filmmaking, friends who can share the same vision, friends he can have a nice chat with in a friendly way. This has nothing to do with age he said. Not at all. When his films were criticised his clubmates always tried to find technical mistakes. They always tried to split hairs.They never spoke in a positive or even constructive way. They had a monopoly on wisdom. They were all people with thick heads.

He hates to be patronised
Werner hates to be patronised. I have my own style and ideas and I can't stand that other people try to push me in a different direction ! I even felt broken-winged sometimes and ... knowing that I always want to stretch my wings ! It was awful. I wanted to be free. That's why I didn't go to my club very often. I took part in the local heat and that was all. In fact I was only a member of that club just to comply with the rules of copyright. I also hoped that my membership would give me more chances to show my films at various festivals."

Werner had been kicked out of his club, but luckily he found an other one. Werner met Werner. Now he is in Werner Vandenbulck's club, the final BIAFF-judge last year. He is in his late forties. "But I don't intend to go to my new club very often ", young Werner told me.

The young psychiastrist gave his opinon about his Antwerp club in our national magazine some months ago. He called a spade a spade. He criticised the atmosphere in his club. I guess that this was the reason why he was voted out of it.

Tremendous responsibilities !
I think it is also interesting to repeat Berry Van der Vorst's words (see previous topic). Berry, who is also a young and talented filmmaker said : Working with a team gives you tremendous responsibilities towards your fellow filmmakers. You are bound to create obligations and ask even more of yourself (or is this an advantage ?) Working on your own, of course, also limits your creativity besides the obvious liberties. To find a way to combine the best of these two starting points, I decided not to join a filmclub. Let me explain :

I can control my creative freedom more.
Being a member of a filmclub gives you the simple responsibility to attend club meetings. As I said before, I do not have the time to commit myself to a club in any way. This would not be fair to the club : yes I am a member, but I have no time to contribute. Secondly, I feel that I can control my creative freedom (hate the word) more if I continue to make films from my own initiative, ie. "independently". Working with friends in a filmclub makes you responsible and dependent on your clubmates. Please, do not take offence on what I'm saying, because I see the huge advantages of a filmclub has (collective talent, experience; equipment; budget), but I suppose it's just not for me. I don't think any filmclub would be happy to have me as its member." This is Berry's opinion.

Samuel Faict (27) is my own clubmate. I asked him to give his opinion in the interview for the IAC' website (read the making-off article about "Amber"). Samuel is a filmstudent and does not attend the clubmeetings very often. Let's say once every two months. Then you can feel that he needs something : actors, equipment, catering, etc...In this interview he tells us that it seems that his clubmates don't appreciate his new style (experimental films). He's only supported by me and a clubmate called Ludo. Also Samuel needs kindred spirits. I must say that I give him the chance to patronize us when he comes. He gets the opportunity to tell us how we must make films. We listen to him and maybe some of us feel a bit patronized by him. I think that's why he has not left our club yet. Last year we still had young Dave in our club. He never made a film, but he enjoyed making lists with mistakes that we had made. I must admit that we learned a lot. He was not a ninny. Unfortunately he started to build his own house and he also focused on playing the guitar with some friends.

Après nous le déluge !
After all, it's good that we now know what young filmmakers really think about our filmclubs that are doomed to disappear. My question : Who's right and who's wrong ? What's right and what's wrong ? It's a fact that there is more and more individualization in our society. That's a pity. The mentality has been changed and we are not able to change this. We feel helpless sometimes. "Après nous le déluge", some friends already think. Do not do any efforts to attract young people even knowing that they should the future of our club and social lives. Are they right or wrong ?

My memories of being a member of cine/video clubs was that there were usually a few good film makers and a lot of holiday film makers of mediocre ability and the club functioned as a social organization as much as a film making group. But I never belonged to one of the "premier" clubs that win in the festivals. I met a lot of very nice people a few are still friends after many years. The clubs tended to be "techy", particularly in the days of 8 mm film when it was very difficult to edit picture and sound and record a mixed sound track plus everything was done on the camera original with a high risk to the picture.

The disadvantages of the traditional club is that it is up there in age and male dominated so not really accessible to the modern stream of film makers.

I get the impression that the Continental European clubs are different from the traditional Brit/US clubs in that they take themselves very seriously. Expelling members!! Wow, "lighten up" as we say here.

ned c

Interesting thread ...
under my club's our old rules, the 'committee' could expel anyone they deemed was of a 'bad sort'.... oooeeerrr...

if clubs want to apply for any form of funding they should be aware that if they have a rule like that, their application will most likely be returned!
the committee can of course.... errrr... 'bar' a member if the member's conduct brings the club into disrepute...
has anyone been a victim of that?

Camera clubs up and down the country are in decline because of past rulings and behaviour esp. committees !
DAMHIKIJKOK ... but more importantly clubs seem to struggle to get the message across.

I'm presently working with some young bright kids (ie read <25yrs! - not an education establishment) and their take on the art of video film making is quite refreshing ... but...
and I'm sorry to say it does not bode well for the image clubs portray on the web ...
(The web was chosen as it's an area young people predominantly use to get info quickly)...

I tried a little exercise with them... gave them a selection of clubs to look up on the web.

their comments made sad reading... and with good reason...

found amongst these sites were cluttered pages with unnecessary information, distracting animated gifs etc
especially the home page, which should be clean and with prioritised information.
Many of the sites had old information, sometimes referring to ... 'up and coming events' ... errrrr ... 1 year ago !!!!!

many had difficultly with navigation ... unreal choices of colour schemes was a favourite cry
of the 10 peeps involved not 1 would come to a club based on what the websites told them ...
words they used ...
looked dowdy, old fashioned, full of old people. (the website I edit for my club did not escape criticism either!!!!)

please note these were words from them ...
I will not stand by and see peeps pull clubs apart for the sake of it... there is a wealth of knowledge, bright cookies and great entertainment going on in my own club, but I think clubs in general don't seem able to get that message across on t'internet ...

if you want to see a gold standard website that they all liked, look at the BBC for ideas...

if your website is for members only, then fair enough you can expect only those to visit.

I understand that the web is just one part of the problem....
next exercise is to devise a good questionnaire and get out on the street !!!


we'll crack this one day chaps (and chapesses!!)

Interesting thought Dave, “Are there disadvantages to belonging to a club.” That really does open a can of worms. However I wonder if this blog will receive any more interest in terms of numbers participating in it than others I have started to read on this site. I do want to say something about clubs and the advantage or disadvantage of being a member so here goes.

When I took early retirement and went to live in Belgium I wanted to pursue a desire to make films something I had always wanted to do. My first film was made in England some 5 years before I flitted to Belgium ( flitted is a beautiful Scots word than means move house) it was about the ‘Glider Pilot Regimental Association’ with titles painted and drawn on paper and then filmed with my Sony video 8 propped up on some books with music playing in the background. How else could you have background music!! Wow I was so proud and showed my film to delighted audience of old soldiers who even wanted to buy copies. I was completely hooked. But my film looked nothing like what I saw on Television or Cinema, I realised I had to go through a learning curve.

So I joined a club soon after I had settled down in Belgium (about two weeks). Quickly I learnt that I could do better even all though all the best films seemed to be made on Holiday in the Algarve or from a Landrover in Africa. I left the first meeting both baffled by the language and determined. I talked about the club to everyone it was fantastic, the work of Florant Van Opstal and his films of the Bass Rock an inspiration.

A year down stream having bought a lot of new equipment, updated my computer visited exhibitions searched the internet and met a number of young film students my attitude to film clubs began to change. Unfortunately they are with a very few exceptions not film making clubs, they are places that closet holiday exhibitionists who have bored all there friends and family find solace amongst similar unfortunates.

Yes, this is not completely true I exaggerate I have seen some great films from various clubs in Britain, Belgium not to mention the films seen at the like of UNICA. Wish I could go every year but I have to make the decision between equipment or talk and fun.

Clubs have to change, the average age has to come down. Yes,yes, I hear you all saying we know this but we can not get young people to join. The answer is you won’t they are to busy making films.

I am still a member of a club in Belgium only for the benefit of being able to enter some of the competitions and meet the few fantastic amateur filmers probably about ten in Belgium and of course being able to show my work without being heavily taxed by Sabam for the pleasure.

I work on a regular basis with young filmers on the edges of industry who although went to film school have not really got beyond Multcam or technician stage and who when marriage and children come along have to move out of the business to earn a proper living. These people can really make films and understand lighting and sound.

These are the people we need to have in the clubs and it is possible to get them to join but not until the attitudes are changed. They do not want to sit with a lot of old men and women having tea and cakes and talking about the next holiday they want to make films in a group of like minded people. By make films I do not mean half the club have to be actors and the other filmers. Filmmaking is not acting and if members want to be actors they should join a theatre club.

In the couple of weeks I go on a two seminar “Low to no budget filmmaking master class” by Elliot Grove (Raindance) this open to all and put on by the ‘Vlaams Audiovisual funds’ they offer grants to filmmakers., the price 25 Euros. I think I will learn more there than at a club meeting at which a member TRIES to show how to make a DVD with Adobe Encore.

Let’s get real and make films and then make more films. Change the name to “What ever FILMAKING CLUB” and make films. That is what it is about.

If any body is interested lets see if we can create a European film making club

Tony

PS. All bad grammar and spelling has been noted and does not require comment.

Hey
There's something rotten in the State og Denmark too ....

In the first club I was member of, the board tried to expell me 2 times, because I critizised the low level of ambitions in the club activities. Fortunately it was turned down at the annual genaral meeting both times.

In my present club one member was expelled now 5 years ago, simply because he took some of the prizes the chairman was used to get. The chairman ran a very efficient manipulation of the clubmembers. The final result was that this member was expelled.
Unfortunately I was hospitalized in that period, so there was nothing I could do to stop this nonsence.
The board went so far as writing letters to all other mavie clubs in the country to become member of another club. I think that is violating the limits of decent behaviour!

In the past years I have had regular contact with this member, and have even some filming with him. He is now a very active member of http://www.nordfilm.net.

At this years annual general assembly of this club, I proposed he should be accepted as member by the club again. The proposal was turned down with 2 wotes for and 11 votes against. So old hate still exist even if I think more than 50% of the voters were not members at the the initial expelling 5 years ago.

Do I need to point this out?
The number of members has gone down from 35 to 16 over the last 5 years. No young members, age ranging from 50 ti 79.
Who is talking about future here?

I am a little tired of people deriding film makers for making so called holiday films. Organisations who cater for film makers should be a church with many chapels. There is nothing wrong with holiday films as distinct from family films made on holiday. I have made holiday films which I make like documentaries for over 40 years. I always try to include shots of activities and interesting locals as well as locations that are very rarely seen by tourists and holidaymakers. I have seen other films of this nature and with well chosen music and interesting commentary have been enchanted by them. Incidently I have also made Fiction films. Every type of film or video can be enjoyed as long as they are made well. I would hazard a guess that if all the holiday film makers left their clubs, there wouldn't be many clubs left. Roy

ned c wrote:
I get the impression that the Continental European clubs are different from the traditional Brit/US clubs in that they take themselves very seriously. Expelling members!! Wow, "lighten up" as we say here.
ned c

It seems to me that Continental European clubs are not worse than British ones, Ned. Read Leif's message and then you will see. Indeed Werner was expelled in his club, but that club is exceptional, or maybe Werner has done something exceptionally wrong. I wonder if in Britain youngsters would feel happy in filmclubs. Someone has told me that there are no young people in British clubs either.

They were allowed to organise parties with modern bang bang music in our clubhouse !
Once I asked one of our young members to make seperate group of young filmmakers under our "old umbrella". They had the permission to use our clubhouse and do all sorts of things. They could organise parties with modern music. They could organise their own festivals. Alas, they wanted to be independant, but they didn't want to take any responsability. "Don't ask me to be your successor", young Davy warned me. "I enjoy making films, I hate taking any responsability". That's why I am now in my 21st year as president of that club. In spite of this I don't give up. I keep on trying to enthuse young people. For instance I ask them to take part in British festivals.


Filmclubs may affect creativity
It is also interesting to read what Berry says about the disadvantages. A filmclub is not always good for creativity. In some way I agree with him. A few years ago I joined a second filmclub. I am very happy there, but I still remember the moment when I showed a version of my unfinished film. The president took my mini-dv away and said : I will take it home and re-edit for you. It will be much shorter and better ! You will see ! I was a bit surprised because he loves criticising films, he loves making films, but he has never made a successful one himself. One week later they took two screens and showed the two versions almost synchronically. It was a disaster ! I told the members of the club that all the emotions that I wanted to express were gone ! I could not accept it. I explained everything. They agreed. The following months I was successful with my own version.

He hates love stories. I love them.
Not long ago a similar thing happened. A love story. A girl looking into the eyes of a boy. A romantic scene. But suddendy I was robbed. My mini-DV was gone ! One week later a new version was shown in our club: the emotional and crucial sequence of the girl looking into the eyes of the boy was gone ! That sequence was too romantic, my friend said ! After that I told him that I appreciated his opinion, but that I wanted to take decisions myself in order not to damage the atmosphere in my films. He agreed with me. We drank some beers and he told some jokes.
My friend does not seem to be a romantic soul because ... Maybe that's the reason why he didn't like that love scene.

Nobody has a monopoly on wisdom. Not me, not anyone else !

Yes, I take the hint, I am not against Holiday films many I have seen our really good, but with all those wonderfull Holiday programs on TV why do so few people get the hint that is how to make a SHORT film. It is the 20 to 30 minute tourist guide monologue that really gets me, especially if I have to see it three of four times at club level with minor changes in it. My real point is that Clubs should start to become FILM MAKING CLUBS. It is fun,interesting and every body in the club is working together jobs for everybody from Director/Producer to catering and gaffer all important in the making of a film wether documentary or feature and when you have made put on a premier and sell tickets for your local good cause. Clubs belong in the community not behind closed doors leave that to the Masons. (I am in trouble again keep putting my shoe in it)
Any way I made a Holiday film this year first prize at club level and third in the Province (County)

Dave Watterson wrote:

I am a little tired of people deriding film makers for making so called holiday films.

I know what Roy means ... but I think the expression was just meant to indicate people who make poor or indifferent films of their holidays rather than proper travelogues or better quality films.
-Dave

Holiday films and their objectives
1. You can go on holiday to make a film which can appeal to a general audience. Very good for festivals like BIAFF, Guernsey, AMPS, etc.
2. You can go on holiday and make a film for your own, for your members of family and for your friends (of your filmclub). Good for local heats, club competititons, etc...

[/b]Three times "Myanmar"
I understand what Tony tells us. It happened a few years ago. Three clubs asked me to be a member of their judging panel in their club competitions. One on Friday night, one on Saturday and one on Sunday. Really, I am not exaggerating. I saw three films with the same title : "Myamar". At that time trips to Myamar, which was called Birma a few decades ago, were very popular. It seemed to me that these three friends had gone to Myanmar together, but it was not true. They didn't know each other. In their travelogues they just followed the chronology of their journeys. So the films were identical and stereotypical. The filmmakers had just followed the programme that they had received from their travel agencies. Showing such films is an advantage, but at the same time it is also a disadvantage. I will try to explain :

It is an advantage for filmmakers who are not very ambitious. They only want to enjoy the memory of that fantastic journey. However, also making such holiday films requires some skills : How can you shorten it without spoiling the atmosphere ? What's the best music for such a reportage ? You need 'long shots', but also functional 'close ups'. Do you have to show everything in your film ? I mean all churches that you have visited, all markets, all streets and squares. Isn't it better to take images with excellent photography (more perspective, the horizon at 1/3rd or 1/4th from the top frame ? Are the views of the ocean horizontal ? etc. etc... Isn't it better to choose a more limited theme ? Why a film about France ? Why not only about the region of vineyards in the Provence ? These are all things that you can learn in a club. Also friends who have made a journey to the same country can enjoy everything again. I praise these films and I praise these filmmakers. We must not forget that most friends go on holiday in a group. They don't have the time to use their tripods. They must follow the guide and respect the timing. They must take pictures of their wives, husbands, partners, friends who went on holiday with them. I myself don't alway like western tourists in oriental boats. It's not good for the oriental atmosphere in an oriental film.

He didn't know what he had filmed !
About 25 years ago I only wrote texts for the president of my club. I didn't make any films myself. Once he had made a trip to Egypt. He was in a group. He "registered" all temples along the river Nile. Afterwards he edited the film. He asked me to write a text for his film. He didn't know himself what temples he had filmed. I went to the library. I tried to find out what historic monuments he had shot. I looked at the photos and compared them with the images he had taken. Of course this is very extreme, but it's a good example of how some holiday films are made from time to time.

Are young filmmakers not more creative than older ones ? (in general)
However, these holiday film-makers should know that they have less chance of winning awards at major festivals. So there is also some danger or a disadvantage : if all members make such films then I fear that in the hearts of filmmakers who are more creative there will some monotony after some time. And ... I have the impression that young filmmakers are more creative than older ones... Please, it does not mean that older cineasts are not creative. Do not misunderstand me. In my club some friends make technically wonderful travelogues, but they are always disappointed with their results. They forget that they have made a film for themselves and for their friends, but not for a general audience.

Excellent examples of holiday films with creativity in it : the ones made by John Astin. I remember his trip to Paris for instance, or his journey to the US... etc...

If you would like a quality holiday film then it's better to make a trip to your own country by car. You can use your tripod. You can do everything at your own pace. And above all you can prepare everything. You go on holiday to make a film and not to register everything.

In November I moved into an other flat. I am a member of two clubs, but now there is one just across the road. That club, called "Beerzelberg", has many members. They go on holiday every year. Sometimes together. And then of course they make holiday films without tripods, without a logical order in their films, but with many friends in them. Every Friday night they have a beer in their clubhouse, they talk and tell jokes. That's what I have heard. Their films are never shown at festivals. Well, I also appreciate such clubs. Maybe one day someone will join "Beerzelberg" who makes holiday fillms with other objectives, but then it might be a disadvantage for their sort of enjoyment.

Grrrr !!! Yes, there are disadvantages ! Last Wednesday one clubmate wanted me to delete a functional and atmospheric shot in my film. I didn't agree with him at all ! There was a meaty discussion about it. Sometimes they are right, but sometimes they are absolutely not and then it is not pleasant. That clubmate has taken a course about writing scenarios. That course is his bible. He always wants to force his will. In my opinion a scenario for a one minute movie must fulfil different stipulations. I have not taken a course, but you can also be self-taught I think. In a one-minute movie there must be a set up in the beginning. After that we must make the viewer curious. The end should be surprising (the last shot !). I also have an other feeling : I don't say that I am an excellent filmmaker, but I am a productive one. I am always grateful to friends who help me and I add their names to the credits of my films. There is one disadvantage : some friends are a bit pushy and always want to jump on my horse.