IAC DISCUSSION FORUMS

Thank you Dave for your support for my suggestion that festival organisers
consider showing extracts of winners in an award show if they have problems
with the length of their programme. Why was there such an outcry when this
was suggested before? As a film maker who sometimes is forced by the nature
of the subject matter to arrive at a running time of say 20 minutes, I do
feel I am imposing on the competition organiser but I can't make artistic
decisions for competition purposes, that would be ridiculous. For instance
I made three 'art' films over the last five years which run 22, 18 and 15
minutes respectively. They were very well received by most audiences (and
judges by the way) and most particularly by artists in varying fields. A
DVD containing all three films has been in tremendous demand and has been
passed round many hands and I have projected all the films in various locations
by request. I put it to some of these audiences that the films were considered
way too long by many 'amateur' commentators and was greeted by derision!
Lee Precott (Cotswold Festival Chief) advises people who want to watch
long films to "watch television or go to the cinema". We should be trying
to make 'professional' standard films as amateurs, and if they turn out a
bit too long for a programme then by all means show extracts of the longer
winners. I do think Dave however, that the maker should be asked to cut
the extract himself since the whole tone of the extract representing the
film depends on that. What does the panel think?? Are our films just for
fitting in programmes or should they (can they?) stand as works on their
own?

Michael Slowe.

For the competitions sake I can understand the requirement for short films
but one thing I find pretty sad is that many of you seem to be predominantly
short film makers and pretty much only because of 'competitions sake'.
I like short films but I'd sooner be pulling of a feature length show. After
all it's no good premmiering a movie that only lasts between 5 to 20 minutes.
Has anyone considered making package features where the film is feature length
but pulled together from several 'short' subjects. The film could still be
suitable for competitions because you can construct package movies to enable
each story to be titled up for separate screening away from the rest of the
picture. Make a package movie then select the part you think might will go
well in a competition, add some titles and submit to the judges.

"Cinema For Thurso Group" <canuimagine@btopenworld.com> wrote:

For the competitions sake I can understand the requirement for short films
but one thing I find pretty sad is that many of you seem to be predominantly
short film makers and pretty much only because of 'competitions sake'.

I am not sure how you arrived at this misreading but most of us make movies
of a length appropriate to the subject and given the sheer diffulty of making
films that involve a number of people the length of the films tends to be
self limiting. Having worked with a few longer amateur films the organisational
and logistical problems of the casting and the shoot are considerable.

I like short films but I'd sooner be pulling of a feature length show. After
all it's no good premmiering a movie that only lasts between 5 to 20 minutes.
Has anyone considered making package features where the film is feature
length
but pulled together from several 'short' subjects. The film could still
be
suitable for competitions because you can construct package movies to enable
each story to be titled up for separate screening away from the rest of
the
picture. Make a package movie then select the part you think might will
go
well in a competition, add some titles and submit to the judges.

This sounds like a program of shorts to me rather like the productions of
Somerset Maugham short stories translated to film and linked by the author.
We need acceptance of longer films by festivals and I agree with Michael's
proposal that the film maker submit a short section for viewing at the screening.


Ned C

Perhaps I should have written a bit more to say that compilation and package
features are a way by which short film makers can have longer shows. All
feature films are made in 'package' method whereby units are asigned to film
specific parts of the movie which are brought together in editing. If you
examine any 'long' movie you can see where it can be cut for excerts and
each excert can be a mini-movie in it's own right. Remember all those super
8 package shorts cut down from feature films. Sometimes they were digests
and other times a full scene excert. Films like Creepshow and Twilight Zone
are total package movies with a selection of stories not always linked but
made with the purpose of being part of a 'feature' film. These are different
from being a 'programme of short films' which would have each story baring
it's own titles and credits before moving on whilst package features have
opening titles only once and unit credits only after the last story.
I wholey agree that people should make longer films. No-one should have
to stick to limited running times just for competitions sake. Competitions,
even in considerations of the practicalities, should not exclude feature
films- compilation, package or full story.

"Michael Slowe" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:

Lee Prescott (Cotswold Festival Chief) advises people who want to watch
long films to "watch television or go to the cinema". We should be trying
to make 'professional' standard films as amateurs, and if they turn out
a
bit too long for a programme then by all means show extracts of the longer
winners. I do think Dave however, that the maker should be asked to cut
the extract himself since the whole tone of the extract representing the
film depends on that. What does the panel think?? Are our films just for
fitting in programmes or should they (can they?) stand as works on their
own?

What a pity that I cannot show my Cotswolds travelogue at the Cotswolds International
Film Festival because of its length (= 28 minutes) ! Taking part in the competition
itself would not be necessary. I am ambitious, but I also make films for
pleasure, not only for winning awards. Lee Prescott has already seen my
film because he has helped me finding the dog Yoda. I am very grateful to
him for that. Lee is a man with principles and you must accept/appreciate
this.
I am a member of the IAC. My membership card says : "Holders of this card
are amateurs... Any film made by them will not be used for commercial purposes."
The length of my film does not mean that I would like to make money with
it. Perhaps judges think so. Last week I was in England with my friend. His
son, who gives lectures on making films at Exeter University, told me that
I could sell my film to the British Tourist Board for instance. No, I only
spend money on films.
The IAC is a charity I think. If the IAC would like to do that, OK, with
pleasure ! But I do not want to earn any euro or any pound sterling with
it. Some people call me naive, but I think it would be unfair to compete
with amateurs at festivals then. Unfortunately this happens in Belgium.
Many Flemish amateur filmmakers find this disgusting. It makes them feel
very discouraged. Does it also happen in Britian ? I am not against professionals,
but I am against professionals who attend amateur festivals with their commercial
films.
Willy

I would say it is unfair for professionals to be entering competitions as
they have had some degree more advantage in their work having been able to
fund it and have access to fasilities most amateurs can only dream about.
Are amateur films allowed to be entered at Cannes?

"Willy Van der Linden" <vanderlindenhig@telenet.be> wrote:

"Michael Slowe" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:


Lee Prescott (Cotswold Festival Chief) advises people who want to watch
long films to "watch television or go to the cinema". We should be trying
to make 'professional' standard films as amateurs, and if they turn out
a
bit too long for a programme then by all means show extracts of the longer
winners. I do think Dave however, that the maker should be asked to cut
the extract himself since the whole tone of the extract representing the
film depends on that. What does the panel think?? Are our films just
for
fitting in programmes or should they (can they?) stand as works on their
own?

What a pity that I cannot show my Cotswolds travelogue at the Cotswolds
International
Film Festival because of its length (= 28 minutes) ! Taking part in the
competition
itself would not be necessary. I am ambitious, but I also make films for
pleasure, not only for winning awards. Lee Prescott has already seen my
film because he has helped me finding the dog Yoda. I am very grateful to
him for that. Lee is a man with principles and you must accept/appreciate
this.
I am a member of the IAC. My membership card says : "Holders of this card
are amateurs... Any film made by them will not be used for commercial purposes."
The length of my film does not mean that I would like to make money with
it. Perhaps judges think so. Last week I was in England with my friend.
His
son, who gives lectures on making films at Exeter University, told me that
I could sell my film to the British Tourist Board for instance. No, I only
spend money on films.
The IAC is a charity I think. If the IAC would like to do that, OK, with
pleasure ! But I do not want to earn any euro or any pound sterling with
it. Some people call me naive, but I think it would be unfair to compete
with amateurs at festivals then. Unfortunately this happens in Belgium.
Many Flemish amateur filmmakers find this disgusting. It makes them feel
very discouraged. Does it also happen in Britian ? I am not against professionals,
but I am against professionals who attend amateur festivals with their commercial
films.
Willy


Willy, I have exactly the same feelongs as you regarding commercial gain

from our film making. BUT, why not offer the interested organisation or even
broadcaster, the opportunity to use your film but to give any money they
want to pay to a charity. Your film being broadcast does not make you a
professional, only a commercial reward does that.
As to professionals entering amateur festivals surely the same criteria should
apply - was there any financial reward for the maker? We should be flattered
if professionals take an interest in our activities (they rarely do!) because
it would result in a raising of our standards I think. In America the boundaries
are not as sharply defined as they are here, I have long regretted this,
we should inter-act more not less.

Michael Slowe.

"Cinema For Thurso Group" <canuimagine@btopenworld.com> wrote:

I would say it is unfair for professionals to be entering competitions as
they have had some degree more advantage in their work having been able
to
fund it and have access to fasilities most amateurs can only dream about.
Are amateur films allowed to be entered at Cannes?

Ah, but what is a professional these days? I see there has been correspondence
on the IAC site about the music licence for wedding videos so can a wedding
video maker be an amateur? What about the providers of training and information
services? I can't see why professionals should be better able to fund a film
than an amateur and in terns of equipment these days there is no difference
at the professional low end. A small TV station in S Utah cuts its news program
on Pinnacle Studio 9 and our main local TV station shoots its news and current
affairs programs on miniDV and edits on FCP3. The main difference is one
of experience in using the equipment. Here in the US we define the film as
"non-commercial" ie amateur if it is not made for financial reward regardless
of who made it,

Ned C

I'm with Ned on the professionals issue. It was different in cine days, but
nowadays their kit is not THAT much better than ours. Their facilities most
of the time are little different to ours - they can buy, we can borrow!

What they do have is experience which saves time, experimentation and many
mistakes. They probably have talent too, otherwise they would not last in
such a competitive field. What they may not have is ideas, time to ruminate
and freedom to say what they want, rather than what the employer demands.

We have freedom.
Whether we use it wisely or not is another matter.

Without doubt the most stimulating, exciting, entertaining and varied festival
I have ever attended is the Festival of Nations in Ebensee, Austria. This
week-long event accepts all amateur and student work under 30 minutes. (It
even allows for exceptional cases where a longer film can be considered.)
In UK amateurs tend to fear that film school students have all the benefits
of professionals. In Austria they don't care.

----------

On extracts - I'm not sure who should choose them. Friends who used to work
in the BBC trailers department always swore that the people nwho edited a
programme were the wrong ones to choose which snippets to show. They claimed
that without the mental baggage of the production process they could provide
a more objective eye and pick the parts which might entice an audience to
see the whole thing. Ideally festival organisers and film-maker should reach
agreement.
----------

Dave

By the way, Albert, I enjoy porage every morning ... made with nutmeg, sprinkled
with cinamon, sliced banana and a little "Grape Nut" cereal. Yummy and very
healthy.

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:

Dave

By the way, Albert, I enjoy porage every morning ... made with nutmeg, sprinkled
with cinamon, sliced banana and a little "Grape Nut" cereal. Yummy and very
healthy.

Sounds delicious!
As is usual, you being broad minded, you can take a joke
in the fun sense it was ment in. Pity others cannot.
As my name is Noble I have been told that I have descended
from a Scottish Clan, so maybe I should partake of the
Oats too.

Where would the world have been without the
Engishman/Welshman/Irishman/Scotsmen/Jewish jokes.
Much the poorer I think and more narrow minded.
Don't spill it down yer kilt and I'll try not to drop my
hhhhh's as a cockney.

'ave a nice day!!

Albert....
http://www.retinascope.co.uk/index.html

"Cinema For Thurso Group" <canuimagine@btopenworld.com> wrote:

I would say it is unfair for professionals to be entering competitions as
they have had some degree more advantage in their work having been able
to
fund it and have access to fasilities most amateurs can only dream about.
Are amateur films allowed to be entered at Cannes?

Thank you very much for saying this. One of the members of my club is Douglas
Boswell. Do you remember him ? The young man won an international award at
the BIAFF some years ago and also the Guernsey Lily Trophy. He was a film
school student. He also won a gold medal at Unica (category film schools).
Now he is a professional. He works for "VTM", that's the Flemish BBC. He's
director of the soap "Wittekerke". It's a bit like "Coronation Street"
or "Neighbours". And the Flemish Government gave him 40.000 pounds sterling
to make a film which he did. With his short film "Romance" he attented international
film festivals for professionals like the one in Montreal (Canada). Imagine
that I would ask him to send his entry to BIAFF next year. Would you accept
this ? I personally think it would not be fair.

From time to time Douglas asks members of my club to help him (catering,
carrying equipment, etc...). He also gives us good advice when making films.
He's still a very good member of my amateur movie club. Life is very hectic
for him now, but when he finds the time to be in our clubhouse, he's there
! Fantastic, isn't it ? "We should be flattered if professionals take an
interest in our activities... We should inter-act more, not less.", Michael
Slowe said. I agree with him. Douglas Boswell is a good example.

About my Cotswold film Michael suggested : "Why not offer the interested
organization to use your film, but to give any money they want to pay a charity."
That's typically English. And that's also one of the good characteristics
of the Dutch. Raising funds for a "battle" against cancer for instance. In
the mean time I've taken an initiative in England. I've contacted my English
friend for it. Many thanks for that good idea, Michael.

Ned said : "Here in the US we define the film as "non-commercial", i.e. amateur
if it is not made for financial reward regardless of who made it." There's
no difference of opinion, I think. In our country some amateur film-makers
try to earn as much money as they can with their amateur films. You can buy
a slightly different version of their films in shops. That's commercial,
isn't it ? Sometimes it is very difficult to see the difference between their
original film and the commercial one. One film-maker who is a "free lance"
cameraman for Belgian TV also had serious problems with copyright. He was
fined. These are things that make some amateur filmmakers feel uncomfortable.

Dave said : "I'm with Ned on the professional issue... Nowadays their kit
is not THAT much better than ours". The problem is not the quality of equipment.
I'm not jealous with filmmakers who possess everything. Indeed I can borrow
their kit. And if I cannot then I try to be a bit inventive. Last week you
could see me sitting in a wheelchair in the concentration camp of Breendonk
which is not so far from us. I'm making a film about that place. I was making
a "rider" for my film ...

A totally different thing : Dave said the Festival of Nations in Ebensee
(Austria) is the most exciting and entertaining festival he ever attented.
I think he's right. Christiane Surdiacourt, who goes to Ebensee every year,
told me that this time there are more than 700 entries ! That's remarkable.
It indicates that it's a festival of good quality. However, some years ago
I sent my entry to Ebensee, but my film, which was announced in the programme,
seemed to be not screened at all. Reason : I could not be there and there
was no Belgian representative. Is it because Ebensee also wants to take
the opportunity to promote tourist activities in the area ? In fact they
are right. Why not ? On the other hand I am not a poor man, but I cannot
afford going to every festival in Europe. I felt a bit unhappy by that.

in the fun sense it was ment in. Pity others cannot.
As my name is Noble I have been told that I have descended
from a Scottish Clan, so maybe I should partake of the
Oats too.
I am decended from Picto-Viking ancestry, there is no tartan for my family

name as it is Norse in origin. My family has been in Caithness for over 1000
years, one of only two original bloodlines under that name. As much as I
am Scottish by todays standards that does not automatically imply that I
do everything that is expected of the Scottish stereo-type. Yes, I like porrige
but I don't like whisky, I say "hello" not "och Aye, the noo, Jimmy" and
you don't go around saying, "top hoe, old chap" etc. Ani, you've come out
with that porrige remark a couple of times and it comes across a little like
'poke the Scottish guy' which why I don't want to hear it again. I like a
joke, even ethnic ones but there is a limit to how many times to use any
joke. Repeated use after it has already been made clear that it is un-welcome,
is unacceptable.
I like Mike Myres charactor, Fat Bastard, in the Austin Powers movies. Fat
B is definately not very complimentary to Scottish people but what makes
this charactor acceptable is that Myres learned his comedy trade in Scotland
and has successfully encompassed some of the more outlandish, niegh, stupid,
trates of the Scots to build a character that true Scots relate to. In short
Myres knows the subject well. He only jokes with what he has experience of.
My jokes in your direction Ani, have been pointed very firmly at your preference
for 4:3 ratio and unwilliness to see the potential creativity of different
formats. It is the only thing of you I can poke fun at because it's the only
thing that I know about you.
Up here, to have your "Oats" means something completely not food related.



Now, that out of the way, I had a problem with this issue of professional/
amateur business with one of my arts collegues. He laid a critisism of a
recent show we had run saying it was very amateur and therfor unsuccessful.
He had to be reminded that his involvement with the arts was totally at amateur
level and that our members who took part were likewise.
My defining line is that professional = paid to do it, amateur = doing it
out of personal interest.
The means by which films are made is neither here nor there nowadays as pros
are using amateurs equipment and techniques whilst amateurs are striving
to meet the standards of pro works. Maybe we should just all swap places!

Inventiveness is something that sets the amateur in a class of their own in
the film world. That aspect of not having all the means at ones disposal
is what brings out our true talents. It was such thing as not having the
means to matte effects or add animations, etc that lead to CFT looking at
what could be done with our slde/neg scanner. The outcome of which was the
creation of PIP 65mm from which we created our new logo and have been using
to enable a 20ft monster to appear alongside a normal sized person whilst
bright fairy lights fly around in the same shot. We have a character firing
lightning bolts from his finger tips, people dissappearing, complete background
changes and people added to hand-made backgrounds with photo elements added
to give realism to the scene. Even video sourced images can be mixed to film.
I have 3 16mm cameras, 1 35mm movie camera, 24 super 8 cameras but none
of them could have made our effects possible without that spark of inventiveness.
There are other ways in which amateurs can do this kind of thing but only
for a video end product, our method has been created to enable the effects
to be reprinted back to a super 8 finished print for cinema projection.
We often read of other amateur films in production and they go through the
course of what problems occured and how they were overcome and it has to
be noted that they all seem to find a way where a pro might not. The ultimate
position of the amateur is one of flexability because we are not tied down
to budget (perhaps held back), or a rigid schedule. We answer to ourselves
for both success and failure.

Too much good material in Willy's posting to respond to at once - and I am
supposed to be staining the window-frames at the moment ... but CforT did
ask about amateurs and Cannes ... and I think that is an issue on which animated
Albert can expound ...


Dave

"Willy Van der Linden" wrote:

One of the members of my club is Douglas
Boswell. Do you remember him ?

Yes, I do. I remember seeeing his work, then finally getting to meet him
at the De Drake Festival - which is sadly missed. I was on the jury and
though we watched films with the audience there was not much chance to chat
because the jury were whisked away to eat and talk behind closed doors. But
when Douglas came it happened to be a break. We chatted for a long time.


He wanted to know what I thought of his films - not in general, in detail,
in great detail. Luckily I had had the task of putting subtitles on "My First
Shakespeare" so I knew that well.

I was fascinated by his wish to discover what had and had not worked for
me in the movie. It has always seemed to me an attribute of the best film
makers that they are eager to listen to what others say. Whether they accept
the comments is neither here nor there. Lesser film makers just want to
hear "wonderful!"

As to whether he should compete directly with amateurs ... I would share
Ned's rule: it does not matter what the maker does for a living, what matters
is whether they made the film that is in competition in the expectation of
making money from it. I'd rule out his "Romance" if he got all that cash
for making it as some of that was probably intended to pay him. Being Douglas
I suspect he might have used his pay to give the film higher production values!

In BIAFF we used to have an esoteric rule that a professional could enter
so long as the work they did on the film was not what they did for a living.
Thus a cameraman could direct or a sound woman could take the pictures.

It is becoming harder to apply the old "gentlemanly" rules about who is and
who is not amateur. Lots of clubs make sponsored movies. Lots of good moviemakers
shoot weddings. Many clubs sold their millenium movies locally.

Dave