North v South, change needed

[Mike Shaw]

Great!

Could you also bring all your gear to the 'public' performances?

I think - but cannot be sure - we can accept HD entries down South here, but they are probably 'transferred' to SD, so ... bit pointless really! I for one would never allow my HD camcorders to be used as playback machines - for judges or shows.

It is possible that clubs are holding back on buying HD projectors until all the problems are sorted - like the loss of sync that can occur. And until club funds can justify the expenditure.

As a matter of interest, we hold the Kent Film Festival in a large modern University lecture theatre, which has the latest and greatest HD ceiling mounted projector (with no access to the connections by mere mortals). The fully equipped projection booth - with duplicated controls at the lecture desks at the front - has touch screen control for everything - DVD players, miniDVD players (and VHS) - complete sound control system. All fully wired. And, believe or not the projector is (was) wired up ... via the S-VHS connectors. "Nobody can tell the difference", they said. And the first year we used this set up, everything worked perfectly - except for the touch screen that controlled everything - which died just a few minutes before the show. We had to quickly find another projector - and place it several rows back from the front in the audience (big throw theatre).

I don't handle the projection there now - but I believe this year they have wired up the projector's HD connections.

Back to the equipment side for a moment, a respectable miniDV player capable of playing back HD costs in the order of £1000. When HD entries are made on tape rather than DVD (many prefer tape to DVD because of the foibles of DVDs) the projectionists have the option of using one of the new HD miniDV players, if they have one - or their own HD camcorder. As i said, there is no way I'd use my HD camcorder for such a task, and although I have a miniDV SD player with monitor which I do use for such events, the upgrade cost to the HD version is way way down on my purchase list.

I think before complaining too much at clubs for not keeping up with everything that's currently great (until next week that is), a little tolerance would be appreciated. Yes, of course you want to show films at their best ... who wouldn't. But for many - most perhaps - having the film seen at marginally lower quality (and the difference is barely perceptible to the majority - as mentioned before, unless you put the two projections side by side) is to be preferred to not showing it at all.

I remember a pro film colourist once telling me that they spend a fortune getting the colours matched and 'right' in a movie, so someone can play it back via a DVD player onto their badly adjusted TV - and they don't even notice that something is wrong, that it doesn't look the way intended.

Such is life!

[Dave Watterson]

Am I daft to suggest that even the cheapest HD camcorder which uses tape would serve to play HD from MiniDV tapes ... so there is no need for a £1,000 deck or an expensive prosumer camcorder?

That still leaves the issue of a suitable display device.

The processing gap between images and pictures has long been recognised in the home cinema market, so many amplifiers have compensating circuits which let you adjust both for the time it takes to process the image (often upscaling it for better quality on screen) and for the delay caused by the placing of the speakers.

Dave

[Mike Shaw]

Cheap camcorders - yes, heard that one many times of course (including from photographic stockists) and it is a definite solution: but basically, camcorders are designed to shoot video, not to be VCRs: of course they can play back material, but that is their secondary function - to check what has just been shot. Put to the unplanned wear and tear of continuous playback, they don't last anywhere near as long as they would as 'cameras'. And tend to go wrong. But nevertheless, these days, good for a few years I'm sure.

It is of course an inexpensive solution. But with the cheaper cam models, controlling the playback can be a bit hit or miss. At one club some time ago they were using a cheap (£250 ish) Panasonic SD cam with a joystick control - FF FR and all that, instead of an ultra expensive miniDV player. I don't think they ever had a smooth show, films were always starting a bit too late, and as for 'pausing' between films ... very hit or miss!

I have an old Sony TVR 900 which is as good today as it was the day it was bought ... but I never ever used it for playback - even for capturing stuff into the PC. I have a Sony miniDV GV-D1000E for that. 4:3 screen and SD only of course.

I have an HC7 HD handycam (useless for me - I thought it would be the bees knees, what with slo mo shooting capabilities and all that. But controlling the camcorder from a touch screen (even playback!) is a nightmare - especially in daylight. So at the moment I'm using that as my HD capture device ... and an FX1 as my (now) main camcorder.

(Slo mo shooting - stretches 3 seconds out to 12 seconds. Fantastic! Except it also knocks the quality down to 25% as well. Now that is a noticeable quality hit!)

I'd much rather have the Sony HD miniDV player. (Offers, anyone?)

I suppose in this respect I'm supporting the other argument - you need the right equipment for the job and to show stuff in its best possible light!

It may not have sounded like it, but I do actually sympathise with 'show it at its best' viewpoint: I just happen to also look at the other side of the story as well though - 'we simply cannot afford all the gear that is necessary... so ...'

[mscott]

Is anyone wanting to see HD in the NvS. If they are then lets not keep talking about it lets try & put some pressure on the organisers to make this happen.

Would you ask a one armed man to be the goalkeeper in a football match, or would you employ a window cleaner who didn’t have a ladder or wash leather, of course the answer would be no on both counts. So why engage judges who don’t have the correct equipment to view HD which is now the first choice for many amateurs. Perhaps a fresh start is needed. Sack the time locked judges & find fresh judges that can cope with progress.

Now I’ve lit the blue touch paper & may just retire.

[Mike Shaw]

Depends whether you wanrt them to judge content or quality. "Never mind the pattern - feel the width..." Quality of reproduction doesn't make a good film, and never will.

I do think the arguments about one legged goalkeepers and ladderless window cleaners is a bit pathetic though.

[Dave Watterson]

It is an interesting assumption that there are lots of potential judges waiting around to be asked. That is not what most competition managers tell me.

Anyone who has attended one of Michael Gough's excellent evenings on the subject of judging knows that there is a lot more to it than you might think.

But if you want to make your views known to those who run the North v South competition, the people to contact are:
Doug Collander (North) 01661 825738
Mike Coad (South) 01424 220391.

Where are our other HD enthusiasts? Speak up and be heard, guys and gals!

Dace

[billyfromConsett]

Dave - I'm not sure that putting people's phone numbers on the web is the best thing to add to this.

I've given a show to a history society tonight, with HDV projected movies and some older SD movies. Some of the audience told me they enjoyed the whole show - I doubt they noted much more difference than the aspect ratios.

This thread has gone way off the road. We've seen my video club accused of a few things we're not guilty of and cannot control, and despite clear statements to correct these, there's been not a ounce of acknowledgement.

It's now IMO a bust thread, with people sticking to their points however it's reasoned out.

[Dave Watterson]

Hi Billy - those phone numbers came from the Event Diary on the main website, thus they are already in the public domain. Most people do not know how the NvS is organised and run, so they do not know who to approach with comments, suggestions and requests. I felt it appropriate to let Mike S know who to approach.

While I certainly agree that content is king ... there is a risk that we let competitions and in many cases clubs drift along in the way they always have, without considering how/if changes should be made.

Looking back over this thread it feels as if we all got a bit over-defensive about what is, surely, a reasonable point of view. Mike S's first post, which started the thread may have been expressed too forcefully as an attack on your club - but we all tend to go a little over-the-top when we feel strongly.

So far as I know the only British major competition which routinely accepts and shows HD is the Guernsey Lily, though even there the pre-selection team may watch SD copies. The IAC comp is making steps towards HD showings at BIAFF but judging is mainly on SD.

The last technical issue of this sort that came up was the use of 16:9. Many writers on the forum got quite heated because this aspect ratio was either not accepted or was badly handled at events. Now - a couple of years on - we find things are better. There are still problems in using the correct aspect ratios, but, for example, this year's films representing the UK at the UNICA Festival are all 16:9. Two are in HD and we will submit them in that format.

- Dave

[Mike Shaw]

That would be the 'other' Mike S of course

I have no objection to people wanting to see their films as HD if possible. But to withdraw or not enter films because showing HD isn't supported I find a bit off. Yes, in a few years time, this discussion won't be about "I made my film in HD and it aint gonna be shown no other way, not nohow", it'll be on the lines "I went to the trouble of making a smelly in 3D with 14.1 surround sound, and ... etc"

It's called progress. We can fight it, but in the end, it happens by default ...

[MIKE COAD]

As organiser of the Southern end of the North v South Competition along with my colleagues at Orpington Video and Film Makers, I am coming rather late to this thread and much of what I would have said has already been said in previous posts.

I agree almost entirely with everything Mike Shaw has said and without knowing it, he has summed up in a nutshell the thinking behind Orpington's running of the competition. As he says, we all want our movies to be shown in the best light but there are few clubs who can afford to keep up constantly with the latest technology.

OVFM has a membership of around 90 and are by far the biggest, most prolific club in the South. Our members produce around 100 films a year. We hold two public shows annually each one attracting around 120 people. However, I have barely heard the words 'High Definition' mentioned amongst our membership and I could count on one hand the number of members who use HD equipment. Obviously, things are different in the North.

Nevertheless, we do not consider ourselves luddites and would happily embrace the technology and invest in the latest gizmos if that is what the membership wanted. Most competition officers are still coming to grips with the foibles of DVD on different players. Just because something is up-to-date doesn't make it the best. Just take a look at the problems with Windows Vista which supposedly was going to outshine Windows XP in every way. As it turns out, Windows XP is far superior and is much preferred by consumers. BETAMAX was considered a far superior system to VHS, yet because of manufacturers not being able to agree on various standards, the poor old consumer was the one to lose out.

Unfortunately, as joint organisers of this competition, we have to draw the line somewhere. There are still film makers out there who swear by 9.5mm and still others who think 16mm will never be beaten. We simply are unable to cater for everyone. With digital film making, it is relatively easy to make copies and transfer between different formats and although this is a compromise, it does at least allow entrants to put in a film. Mike Shaw is quite right. It is a lame excuse indeed not enter a film because the organisers do not accept HD entries especially when that film has already been made. I am sure in time we will accept HD entries as they become the norm but not this year. The reason that we have no such statement on the Southern entry form is that for us it makes more sense to put what we do accept rather than what we don't.

It's strange that nobody complains about the imposed time limit or that entries must have been produced in the two years prior to the closing date yet despite accepting 6 different formats, it is this fact that receives the attention.

Billy has already answered statements concerning Newcastle ACA's position and I would not wish to tread on his toes. Suffice to say, if it were not for them, there would definitely not have been a North v South Competition for the past few years as nobody else was willing to take up the running of it in the North.

We are very fortunate in the South that we make a decent profit on this competition every year thanks to the support of many clubs who both enter films and attend on the day. We regularly get audience members from as far away as Nuneaton, Derby, Portsmouth and Falmouth. We also have a higher concentration of local clubs who come along on the day and support us.

Sadly, the North are not in the same position. They do not get the support from other clubs in the North and this year, ran at a loss. We spent several weeks earlier this year, liaising with each other, to see what improvements could be made and Newcastle have implemented several changes which they hope will see the continuance of the competition.

Make no mistake, if they lose money again this year, that is likely to be the end of the competition.

So, please, please, reconsider entering your film and just as importantly, support Newcastle on the days of the Northern Heat and Final. Both Doug Collander and John Andrew work extremely hard organising things in the North and your clubs support with a film and'or 'bums on seats' would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Roy1]

Mike. You talk a lot of sense and what you say is also my thoughts. After 60 odd years in the film making and now Video making business and organising many "Public shows" for a film club in the past I can say that a public show is one when tickets are sold to the General Public in advance through different locations other than the club premises and at the door.
I have found that over the years General public attendances have dwindled and audiances are now made up of club members and their friends. Running clubs and competitions is a thankless task sometimes and I personally think the knockers should try running the operation themselves.

[MIKE COAD]

Another problem is that many halls do not allow the sale of tickets to the general public. At Orpington Video & Film Makers we hold two annual shows a year but it is a condition of the hall hire that we only sell tickets to friends, family and members of other clubs via our own members prior to the show taking place.

A further problem with allowing the general public to arrive and buy tickets on the day is the maximum capacity of the hall. Our Autumn show took place last Wednesday and around 120 people attended. This time, our show was held in a church so there was plenty of room but 120 in our regular show hall would be nearing maximum capacity. The same is true for the hall where we hold the North v South. If many more than 100 people showed up, we would be sitting on each others laps.