It's ironic, but I owned a full bought from Pinnacle copy of Liquid - I got on a special offer when the company were having problems with the Pro-One. But as I like Premiere, and the card's real-time features were to be switched off with it, I didn't ever use it- and included it when I later sold the card on ebay.
You've made it sound tempting though. Although if it's going to be totally revamped with new code, then now isn't a time to buy a copy.
Mercalli Image stabilizer or 'de-shaker'
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Mike Shaw
My guess is one year minimum before the revamped version comes out. In the meantime, Liquid 7 will be supported with patches where and if necessary (to suit new camcorders etc, but not Vista).
The verision of Liquid you had may have been 4.5 (Pro One wasn't the best news, was it...) - if so, you did well to sell it. You really had to be a pro pro to be able to use that, and the training course for V4.5 was two weeks! It really was a bit of a nightmare to learn and use, and gave Liquid (Edition as it was then) the reputation of harving a long steep learning curve. Version 5 was easier, V6 was pretty good - still in use by a lot of people (round here, anyway), and V7 is a humdinger. The early versions (4.5 and 5) weren't as feature rich - but all have had the instant save function.
To me, the Liquid vs Premiere 'battle' , or whatever, is like the BetaMax vs VHS battle some years ago. No question as to which is the best. But its the most heavily promoted that takes the lion's share. (Sorry beta ... you may have been best, but you had the weakest sales take-up). They're planning on the next Liquid knocking the pants off anything else available (in the middle range) and promoting it, for a change. And its 99.9999% sure it won't be called Liquid.
In the meantime, I have everything I need here in 7.2 ...
My advice would definitely be, stick with what you're happy and comfortable with now, and have a look at the new beast when it appears. After all, £4-£500 or so isn't cheap for a bit of software, and one wouldn't want to be lashing out that much every year or so. I'd rather put it towards another cam, or mics, or something. In any case, when it does come out, it will need Vista. For me, that means a far bigger investment than just the software.
Start savin' !"
The verision of Liquid you had may have been 4.5 (Pro One wasn't the best news, was it...) - if so, you did well to sell it. You really had to be a pro pro to be able to use that, and the training course for V4.5 was two weeks! It really was a bit of a nightmare to learn and use, and gave Liquid (Edition as it was then) the reputation of harving a long steep learning curve. Version 5 was easier, V6 was pretty good - still in use by a lot of people (round here, anyway), and V7 is a humdinger. The early versions (4.5 and 5) weren't as feature rich - but all have had the instant save function.
To me, the Liquid vs Premiere 'battle' , or whatever, is like the BetaMax vs VHS battle some years ago. No question as to which is the best. But its the most heavily promoted that takes the lion's share. (Sorry beta ... you may have been best, but you had the weakest sales take-up). They're planning on the next Liquid knocking the pants off anything else available (in the middle range) and promoting it, for a change. And its 99.9999% sure it won't be called Liquid.
In the meantime, I have everything I need here in 7.2 ...
My advice would definitely be, stick with what you're happy and comfortable with now, and have a look at the new beast when it appears. After all, £4-£500 or so isn't cheap for a bit of software, and one wouldn't want to be lashing out that much every year or so. I'd rather put it towards another cam, or mics, or something. In any case, when it does come out, it will need Vista. For me, that means a far bigger investment than just the software.
Start savin' !"
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billyfromConsett
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:27 pm
- Location: Consett
Mike, I should mention that I dug my heels in the other day, but it wasn't just to argue - I'm too old for that. I did ask for something without spending too long trying to find it myself.
A friend asked me to look into the pros' of Mercalli, as he needs its features- but he has Prem 6 and a DV500 edit card. Mercalli looks a very inexpensive, and better plug-in, to Steadymove, the one in Prem Pro. We'll look at this further...
But Mercalli should be exactly what's needed.
The version of Liquid I had was indeed v4.5, and was called Edition as I remember. I think I viewed it as an app that used only a small selection of my edit card's features; so seemed a software (ie slow rendering) route.
So it didn't appeal. I just bought a Canopus Storm 2 pro instead. It works well. And I've got Edius, but again I was fine with Prem, so that's in the draw (Edius fans I confess)
Maybe as a viewer of a few Avid editing apps, would you say that Liquid 8 or whatever it'll be called, will allow a twin-line timeline, with a transition space between them, as in Prem, and maybe attract the likes of me?
A friend asked me to look into the pros' of Mercalli, as he needs its features- but he has Prem 6 and a DV500 edit card. Mercalli looks a very inexpensive, and better plug-in, to Steadymove, the one in Prem Pro. We'll look at this further...
But Mercalli should be exactly what's needed.
The version of Liquid I had was indeed v4.5, and was called Edition as I remember. I think I viewed it as an app that used only a small selection of my edit card's features; so seemed a software (ie slow rendering) route.
So it didn't appeal. I just bought a Canopus Storm 2 pro instead. It works well. And I've got Edius, but again I was fine with Prem, so that's in the draw (Edius fans I confess)
Maybe as a viewer of a few Avid editing apps, would you say that Liquid 8 or whatever it'll be called, will allow a twin-line timeline, with a transition space between them, as in Prem, and maybe attract the likes of me?
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Mike Shaw
Ah. Mercalli doesn't work with Premiere 6 so your friend would have to move to (the next?) version of Premiere.
Yes, Edition 4.5 was a bit of a techie's beast. I had a copy given to me when I met the development team in Munich (I was invited over there to 'chat' to them about making Edition more usable for Studio users - an almost impossible task at the time!). Flatteringly, they did take on board a lot of my suggestions, as seen in later versions, but I could never really get to grips with V4.5 at all. So I can understand getting rid of it in favour of something else (anything else would have been better, usage wise!)
The new Liquid (Liquid-ate? No, that's one reason why they're changing the name!) will unquestionably (I sincerely hope!) have tbe same time-line power as the current version. That is both in line and multi-track A/B rolls. If you prefer A/B rolls and twin-line edits - you've got it. In fact you can have as many time-lines, each dedicated to exactly what you choose (Video+audio, Video, Audio stereo, Audio 1, 2, 3 or 4', Audio with scrubbing, Audio without scrubbing ... locked, unlocked, active, inactive etc etc etc). And you can use those time-lines in whichever way your editing preferences desire.
In-line editing in Liquid for transitions is far more powerful than you might imagine. Unlike programs like, say, Studio, a transition doesn't sit equally across both clips. In fact, it is exactly the same as two-line (A/B roll) transitions - but if you can imagine it, with both lines fused into one. With two line transitions, the two clips must 'overlap' for the transition area. This is also true of the Liquid single line transition - the 'overlap' is called 'leeway' in Liquid parlance. If that 'leeway' isn't there (leeway means material between the clip begin or end marker, and the actual clip's beginning or end), then this is indicated in the transition graphic. This method means that a clip with 'no' leeway - ie you want to use every fraction of the clip - can still be used in a transition - as long as the 'other' clip in the transition has the required leeway! There is an article about this on my webpages - aimed at Studio users upgrading to Liquid, but still shows what I mean (I hope) -
http://www.mikeshaw.co.uk/editionforstudio.htm#usetrans
It was written for Edition 5 & 6, but is still relevant on Liquid 7 - and I'm sure, all fuiture versions.
However, as I said, if you prefer working on two timelines, then you can. The beauty of Liquid is it lets you tailor - and/or select - the layout you want, and work exactly the way you want. There is even a 'Premiere' user detox, and a Premiere user type interface and controls set to help make the transition from Premiere to Liquid. When I watch other people using Liquid and see the way they work, it is never the same as me - and often, I see them doing things quicker and easier 'their way' than my way. So I learn and change... I just hope the new version will maintain this flexibility. Knowing the Munich team, I'm sure it will. It would be disastrous to step back on capabilities - they're more likely to move forward I think.
Hope all that helps!
Yes, Edition 4.5 was a bit of a techie's beast. I had a copy given to me when I met the development team in Munich (I was invited over there to 'chat' to them about making Edition more usable for Studio users - an almost impossible task at the time!). Flatteringly, they did take on board a lot of my suggestions, as seen in later versions, but I could never really get to grips with V4.5 at all. So I can understand getting rid of it in favour of something else (anything else would have been better, usage wise!)
The new Liquid (Liquid-ate? No, that's one reason why they're changing the name!) will unquestionably (I sincerely hope!) have tbe same time-line power as the current version. That is both in line and multi-track A/B rolls. If you prefer A/B rolls and twin-line edits - you've got it. In fact you can have as many time-lines, each dedicated to exactly what you choose (Video+audio, Video, Audio stereo, Audio 1, 2, 3 or 4', Audio with scrubbing, Audio without scrubbing ... locked, unlocked, active, inactive etc etc etc). And you can use those time-lines in whichever way your editing preferences desire.
In-line editing in Liquid for transitions is far more powerful than you might imagine. Unlike programs like, say, Studio, a transition doesn't sit equally across both clips. In fact, it is exactly the same as two-line (A/B roll) transitions - but if you can imagine it, with both lines fused into one. With two line transitions, the two clips must 'overlap' for the transition area. This is also true of the Liquid single line transition - the 'overlap' is called 'leeway' in Liquid parlance. If that 'leeway' isn't there (leeway means material between the clip begin or end marker, and the actual clip's beginning or end), then this is indicated in the transition graphic. This method means that a clip with 'no' leeway - ie you want to use every fraction of the clip - can still be used in a transition - as long as the 'other' clip in the transition has the required leeway! There is an article about this on my webpages - aimed at Studio users upgrading to Liquid, but still shows what I mean (I hope) -
http://www.mikeshaw.co.uk/editionforstudio.htm#usetrans
It was written for Edition 5 & 6, but is still relevant on Liquid 7 - and I'm sure, all fuiture versions.
However, as I said, if you prefer working on two timelines, then you can. The beauty of Liquid is it lets you tailor - and/or select - the layout you want, and work exactly the way you want. There is even a 'Premiere' user detox, and a Premiere user type interface and controls set to help make the transition from Premiere to Liquid. When I watch other people using Liquid and see the way they work, it is never the same as me - and often, I see them doing things quicker and easier 'their way' than my way. So I learn and change... I just hope the new version will maintain this flexibility. Knowing the Munich team, I'm sure it will. It would be disastrous to step back on capabilities - they're more likely to move forward I think.
Hope all that helps!
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Dave Watterson
- Posts: 1879
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:11 pm
- Location: Bath, England
- Contact:
Church owlsDave Watterson wrote:Just an aside ... I make a point of seeing the time of each posting. It is fascinating how many night-owls there are among us! And now that Summer-Time is over the time on the forum matches the one on our clocks!
Dave
I live together with the barn owls. Do not forget that when I am writing a message it is one hour later on the continent. I often go to bed at 2 am (1 am English time) ! One of the reasons : at night I can better focus on my films because it is very quiet here.
In Dutch barn owls are called "church owls". In front of my house there is a village church. During the day they sleep. At night they fly away to find mice and other small animals. One of my friends has made a film about barn owls. Very interesting film. It was not easy to do the camera work at night.
Some "owl enthusiasts" helped him. In fact I should subtitle his documentary (of course with the help of Dave) but now I am trying to finish 4 or 5 films for BIAFF 2008.
Sorry, friends, that I am telling something different now. The theme of this thread is totally different. I am not so interested in technical details. My apologies, but yes, I've just replied to Dave's message;
Willy Van der Linden
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Roy
as posted
It's very noticable that everyone seems to stick to their opinions about different editing programmes. I think its a matter of horses for courses. If a person has got a certain programme for editing and they are happy with it and have good results as far as they are concerned, then other people, even if they have, in their opinion, superior programmes, should acknowledge the fact and shouldn't keep insisting how much better their programmes are. I have Pinnacle DVD 5oo which includes Adobe 6.5, and I am extremely happy with it, but if I needed more advanced programmes such as the one mentioned in this thread, I would not hesitate to change my editing programme to accommodate it. Mike, will this programme coupled with Avid liquid 7.2, work with XP pro. 
Roy
Roy
It will be interesting to see what happens to Avid Liquid as it does not fit into the Avid professional software series. I was an early user of EditDV, became a Beta tester, saw it go to Media 100 and then to Autodesk where it fitted neither company's philosophy and then died as Cinestream 3 when it had become a really good program. Hope Liquid survives but don't hold your breath. The originators of Liquid, FAST, had a tightly integrated and interesting series of professional editing programs, of which Liquid is the only survivor.
Ned C
Ned C