Willy, can I ask you whether we should go to the trouble of sub titling wordy
films? What would be the best language to use if sub titling is required?
We certainly appreciate (need) English sub titles on foreign films at our
festivals but then we are famously bad at languages. By the way you go a
bit far in saying Dave's German is good, his accent is pure Scot! Only joking
Dave, we need your sub titling skills, I reckon that you could have a useful
business sideline in that field.
Michael Slowe.
Language For Our Films Abroad.
-
Willy Van der Linden
Re: Language For Our Films Abroad.
"Michael Slowe" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
and French films is really very difficult. The English and French always
speak very fast. So the Flemish/Dutch viewers must have enough time to read
all the subtitles (= sentences that are translated into Dutch). It means
that I always have to try to use short sentences without changing the meaning
of the English spoken sentences. Do you understand ? It's also a bit risky,
because by translating you can spoil the atmosphere of the film. When using
English subtitles I always ask one of my former English colleagues who works
at the European School, Adriano Jaconelli - He is from Bath in England, not
from Italy - to correct my mistakes and to use a colloquial style. He's
an English language teacher. Then I am also sure that my subtitles are correct.
I know Belgian friends who give their films to professional translators and
who have to pay about 1250 pounds sterling for the translation of one drama
film with a length of about 20 minutes. I love making films, but I cannot
afford this, you know. I only wanted to tell my British friends that if
a foreigner would like to take part in the British International Amateur
Film Festival (s)he is always obliged to translate/subtitle her/his documentaries,
travelogues or other films. The English are a bit privileged. But when saying
this I am also a hypocrite, because writing sentences in foreign languages
or subtitles is in fact also a fascinating part of making a film in my opinion.
It's a bit like editing the film. You "play" with words or sentences instead
of film shots. You always have to try to delete useless shots to make your
film shorter and stronger. When writing the commentary, with or without subtitles,
you always have to try to delete words/sentences. Sometimes the more information
you give the worse. It is not good to "overload" your film with information,
I think, otherwise your film will be too tiring for the viewers. That's also
why subtitling documentaries is more difficult than subtitling comedies or
drama films. So please, do not use any subtitles, Michael. Your good documentaries
might lose some of their strength. Dave told us that English is the most
important language in the world. Perhaps he has exaggerated. He is one of
those very chauvinistic British people. The Chinese, for instance, would
not agree with him, I fear. But more and more English is used everywhere.
That's right. The computer language in Belgium is English ! The Flemish do
not know the word "ordinateur". They know the word "computer". As you know
three official languages are spoken in Belgium : Dutch, French and German.
Our Belgian athletes, basketball players of the national team, etc. already
wear sports jerseys with the word "Belgium" on them, not "Belgique" or "Belgien"
or "België". That's a good evolution, I think. In international festivals
in Europe practically all judges understand English more or less. When watching
films at the IAC-festival I understand all films, unless slang is used. Then
I'm always a bit puzzled.
I have some experience in subtitling films as you know. Subtitling EnglishWilly, can I ask you whether we should go to the trouble of sub titling
wordy
films? What would be the best language to use if sub titling is required?
We certainly appreciate (need) English sub titles on foreign films at our
festivals but then we are famously bad at languages. By the way you go
a
bit far in saying Dave's German is good, his accent is pure Scot! Only
joking
Dave, we need your sub titling skills, I reckon that you could have a useful
business sideline in that field.
Michael Slowe.
and French films is really very difficult. The English and French always
speak very fast. So the Flemish/Dutch viewers must have enough time to read
all the subtitles (= sentences that are translated into Dutch). It means
that I always have to try to use short sentences without changing the meaning
of the English spoken sentences. Do you understand ? It's also a bit risky,
because by translating you can spoil the atmosphere of the film. When using
English subtitles I always ask one of my former English colleagues who works
at the European School, Adriano Jaconelli - He is from Bath in England, not
from Italy - to correct my mistakes and to use a colloquial style. He's
an English language teacher. Then I am also sure that my subtitles are correct.
I know Belgian friends who give their films to professional translators and
who have to pay about 1250 pounds sterling for the translation of one drama
film with a length of about 20 minutes. I love making films, but I cannot
afford this, you know. I only wanted to tell my British friends that if
a foreigner would like to take part in the British International Amateur
Film Festival (s)he is always obliged to translate/subtitle her/his documentaries,
travelogues or other films. The English are a bit privileged. But when saying
this I am also a hypocrite, because writing sentences in foreign languages
or subtitles is in fact also a fascinating part of making a film in my opinion.
It's a bit like editing the film. You "play" with words or sentences instead
of film shots. You always have to try to delete useless shots to make your
film shorter and stronger. When writing the commentary, with or without subtitles,
you always have to try to delete words/sentences. Sometimes the more information
you give the worse. It is not good to "overload" your film with information,
I think, otherwise your film will be too tiring for the viewers. That's also
why subtitling documentaries is more difficult than subtitling comedies or
drama films. So please, do not use any subtitles, Michael. Your good documentaries
might lose some of their strength. Dave told us that English is the most
important language in the world. Perhaps he has exaggerated. He is one of
those very chauvinistic British people. The Chinese, for instance, would
not agree with him, I fear. But more and more English is used everywhere.
That's right. The computer language in Belgium is English ! The Flemish do
not know the word "ordinateur". They know the word "computer". As you know
three official languages are spoken in Belgium : Dutch, French and German.
Our Belgian athletes, basketball players of the national team, etc. already
wear sports jerseys with the word "Belgium" on them, not "Belgique" or "Belgien"
or "België". That's a good evolution, I think. In international festivals
in Europe practically all judges understand English more or less. When watching
films at the IAC-festival I understand all films, unless slang is used. Then
I'm always a bit puzzled.
-
Dave Watterson
Re: Language For Our Films Abroad.
£1,250 to have a 20 minute film subtitled - don’t tell the volunteer team
currently subtitling 44 minutes of UK films for UNICA !
But thinking about it:
Technician captures the film on computer.
Translator watches it at normal speed to get the sense and style.
Translator runs it slowly to transcribe the words – not just speech but songs
shop signs, notices, newspaper headlines etc.
They translate it – making sure the speech matches character types.
They shorten it. They don’t translate every word, just enough to aid understanding
of plot and characters.
Translator and technician go through the movie adding titles and trying to
place the words where the audience can relate them to what is going on, but
not where they distract from important action. They will probably shorten
the text more at this stage to fit the screen time available for each line.
Last they render and run the movie at normal speed to check it, make any
adjustments and check again.
On top of the technician and translator fees the company must pay for its
overheads: rooms, desks, computers etc and take its profit. You can see where
£1,250 might be justified.
We are translating into both French and German. (They appear on screen together
so we can have just one line of subtitle in each language … about 35 characters.)
Reg Lancaster coordinates, Ray Lancaster does the main French translation,
Pat Menmuir does the main German translation. Both enlist the help of native
speakers. I do the physical titling, much of the shortening and check the
results with my local experts.
It is all done remotely. Reg is in Kent, Ray in France, Pat in Perth and
I’m in Bath. Draft versions of texts circulate by email and later drafts
of movies are circulated by post. So four people do the bulk of the work
with assistance from three or four others. The total number of hours spent
on it must be enormous.
You are right again, Willy. We should revive Esperanto.
Dave
currently subtitling 44 minutes of UK films for UNICA !
But thinking about it:
Technician captures the film on computer.
Translator watches it at normal speed to get the sense and style.
Translator runs it slowly to transcribe the words – not just speech but songs
shop signs, notices, newspaper headlines etc.
They translate it – making sure the speech matches character types.
They shorten it. They don’t translate every word, just enough to aid understanding
of plot and characters.
Translator and technician go through the movie adding titles and trying to
place the words where the audience can relate them to what is going on, but
not where they distract from important action. They will probably shorten
the text more at this stage to fit the screen time available for each line.
Last they render and run the movie at normal speed to check it, make any
adjustments and check again.
On top of the technician and translator fees the company must pay for its
overheads: rooms, desks, computers etc and take its profit. You can see where
£1,250 might be justified.
We are translating into both French and German. (They appear on screen together
so we can have just one line of subtitle in each language … about 35 characters.)
Reg Lancaster coordinates, Ray Lancaster does the main French translation,
Pat Menmuir does the main German translation. Both enlist the help of native
speakers. I do the physical titling, much of the shortening and check the
results with my local experts.
It is all done remotely. Reg is in Kent, Ray in France, Pat in Perth and
I’m in Bath. Draft versions of texts circulate by email and later drafts
of movies are circulated by post. So four people do the bulk of the work
with assistance from three or four others. The total number of hours spent
on it must be enormous.
You are right again, Willy. We should revive Esperanto.
Dave
-
Willy Van der Linden
Re: Language For Our Films Abroad.
"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
something that is causing annoyance or even slight anger then I will tell
you. See one of my next messages. One of my friends has asked me to write
a message with a complaint. I agree with him... He is a bit impatient now...
Subtitling films is an enormous time-consuming and a delicate job. I remember,
Dave, that some years ago you had the task of putting subtitles on "My First
Shakespeare", the film made by Douglas Boswell. How did you do that ? I guess
you do not understand Dutch at all ! I know that you speak German with a
Scottish accent, but Dutch ... ? Would you subtitle my films next time ?
(I'm joking because I also find it a fascinating job). I appreciated your
subtitles on "Shakespeare" very much. I remember that not all the sentences
had been translated, but that the film was still OK for an English audience.
The IAC is super ! I am not a flatterer you know. I mean it. If there isTechnician captures the film on computer.
Translator watches it at normal speed to get the sense and style.
Translator runs it slowly to transcribe the words – not just speech but
songs
shop signs, notices, newspaper headlines etc.
You are right again, Willy. We should revive Esperanto.
something that is causing annoyance or even slight anger then I will tell
you. See one of my next messages. One of my friends has asked me to write
a message with a complaint. I agree with him... He is a bit impatient now...
Subtitling films is an enormous time-consuming and a delicate job. I remember,
Dave, that some years ago you had the task of putting subtitles on "My First
Shakespeare", the film made by Douglas Boswell. How did you do that ? I guess
you do not understand Dutch at all ! I know that you speak German with a
Scottish accent, but Dutch ... ? Would you subtitle my films next time ?
(I'm joking because I also find it a fascinating job). I appreciated your
subtitles on "Shakespeare" very much. I remember that not all the sentences
had been translated, but that the film was still OK for an English audience.
-
Willy Van der Linden
Re: Language For Our Films Abroad.
"Willy Van der Linden" <vanderlindenhig@telenet.be> wrote:
lead to misunderstanding. I meant : David did not translate all the sentences,
but the film did not lose its strength with its brief English subtitles.
His subtitles were brief and to the point. Using a foreign language is difficult
and risky from time to time !
Sorry, after having written this I thought that this last sentence might"that the film was still OK for an English audience."
lead to misunderstanding. I meant : David did not translate all the sentences,
but the film did not lose its strength with its brief English subtitles.
His subtitles were brief and to the point. Using a foreign language is difficult
and risky from time to time !
-
Dave Watterson
Re: Language For Our Films Abroad.
Thanks for the kind words, Willy.
Because I know you and we meet most years at the British festival I understand
that you never mean to be rude. One problem with email and forums is that
if you have not met the writer you may misunderstand their intentions. That's
why I try (!) to be carefully polite on here.
I had an easy time subtitling "My First Shakespeare" because its director,
Douglas Boswell, sent a translation of the script from its original Belgian.
At that time foreign films were occasionally shown at festival with someone
reading a translation through the public-address system. It works better
than you might think. Douglas probably expected that to happen.
I did have to amend the script a bit to keep the subtitles to a manageable
length. Some jokes just did not translate and there were subtleties like
different terms for "postman" which probably made an impact in Belgium but
were lost to me.
Another bonus is that the movie is wide-screen, so my first step was to move
the picture from the centre of the screen to the top, thus leaving lots of
black space for subtitles.
Dave
subtitle <<Dave said thanks, the director made it easy.>>
Because I know you and we meet most years at the British festival I understand
that you never mean to be rude. One problem with email and forums is that
if you have not met the writer you may misunderstand their intentions. That's
why I try (!) to be carefully polite on here.
I had an easy time subtitling "My First Shakespeare" because its director,
Douglas Boswell, sent a translation of the script from its original Belgian.
At that time foreign films were occasionally shown at festival with someone
reading a translation through the public-address system. It works better
than you might think. Douglas probably expected that to happen.
I did have to amend the script a bit to keep the subtitles to a manageable
length. Some jokes just did not translate and there were subtleties like
different terms for "postman" which probably made an impact in Belgium but
were lost to me.
Another bonus is that the movie is wide-screen, so my first step was to move
the picture from the centre of the screen to the top, thus leaving lots of
black space for subtitles.
Dave
subtitle <<Dave said thanks, the director made it easy.>>