One for Tom H

[col lamb]

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/uk/prod ... nemacamera

Now I'd like to read a Tom H review of this little beauty

[tom hardwick]

The 13 stops of dynamic range is impressive, but it's still a very small chip compared to Sony's VG900

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sony+ ... 60&bih=963

I have the NX5 and I think it's a great camera but the full size chip in the 900 (or the APSc chip in the VG20) will be a real step up.

The VG900 with a full frame chip will surely give you better image quality (if that is important) and the shallow DOF one can get with that will let you be more creative.
The ergonomics of the VG cameras will take some getting used to but surely are better than the Black Magic 'compact camera' idea.
The good thing is both can use a lot of fast prime lenses, though micro four-thirds are thin on the (second-hand) ground.

But I'll happily test anything for the mag. Bring it on.

tom.

[ned c]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbO1ZifjqXU

Sample footage shot on the BM Pocket Camera; there is a lot of stuff on the web.

The Sony VG900 body costs $3,000 and it records AVCHD at 24 mbps; the BMPC body is priced at $1,000 and records in either ProRes422 HQ or Cinema DNG raw, both superior codecs to AVCHD. So it’s not just a matter of sensor size that determines picture quality and post production capabilities. There are some very good MFT lenses and for less than the cost of the VG900 body you can have a BMPC plus a couple of top end lenses. OK the form factor is very different but on a tripod or a stedicam this is less important. Also with the BMPC you get a copy of the Da Vinci Lite color management program but it comes with a very steep learning curve. (you can get this for free from the BM site anyway.)

I have a Sony VG20; (APS C sensor) and this is a camera with limited and difficult to access controls; I have a set of fast Rokinon prime lenses that are excellent for the price. Framing with prime lenses is a different game to framing with a zoom; move the camera or change the lens. Why this camera? My wife has used Sony Alpha DSLRs for some years and I can use her lenses with the Alpha to E adaptor. But it's not a camera I would recommend

Ned c

[tom hardwick]

You raise some very good points Ned, not the least of which is the huge price difference between the Sony VG900 and the diminutive Black Magic. Then there's the more advanced codec used by BM, but in reality, up there on the screen, no codec is going to be able to fight a chip that's twice its size. Not pictorially or aesthetically in tom's view.

[TimStannard]

Here's an interesting (possibly) video comparing a full-frame, APS-C and 1/2.88 sensors. It's not at all scientific and misses out all the significant information (aperture & focal length, for starters).

I'm guessing it is set for the shallowest depth of field possible at a similar focal length for each type. I would have thought the full-frame example is actually too shallow for most tastes - it looks like the subject is standing against a projected (or green screened) background.

There is no doubt that a full-frame camera has greater flexibility with DoF and shooting in lower light conditions.

But it seems to me that the current trend is to shoot "flat" and process in the edit suite. Thus grading is as important a part of the creative process as shooting. This is what the BMD Pocket Cinema Camera is designed for. As with any digital processing, the more info you hae to begin with the better your results and it is here that working with ProResHQ or RAW 4:2:2 really shines. (This is the same logic as Tom uses when he advocates shooting and editing in HD even when the end result is only going to be on DVD)

Getting good results with a BMD camera requires a lot of time to set up lighting (and the camera), but under the right condidtions, the results will be more useful in post production than those shot on AVCHD. For run & gun shooting, or indeed under anything other than ideal conditions, the VG900 will win out every time.

You pay's yer money ...

(or am I wrong?)

[ned c]

Tim; I am intrigued by your comment that the BMPC requires a lot of time to set up and that under anything but ideal conditions the VG900 will win out. Please expand on that as with a zoom lens (and there are some very good if expensive MFT zooms) and a simple grip with mic mount and some practice the BMPC can be hand held as well as the VG900. The example on YouTube is all hand held under available light. I admit some of the illustrations on the BMD website with a BMPC with a PL mount zoom and buried in the cage; rails etc are absurd but no doubt someone will do it, but that is not what this camera is about.

nede c

[col lamb]

Lets compare like with like, the BMD is £730 v £2300 for the Sony, both just for the bodies.

If you want a camera that will totally blow the Sony away then the BMD 4k camera at £2600 will no doubt do that and it is nearer in price to the Sony

Also BMD's 2.5k looks like a Sony killer to and that is cheaper than the Sony

Its good that BMD is so innovative and way cheaper, maybe now the likes of Sony, Panasonic etc will market their kit at a more realistic price.

Whilst sensor size matters, an AVCHD camcorder is still an AVCHD and in the Sony's case the maximum bit rate is 28Mbps which is the same as the consumer grade Panasonic 900 that Tom H raves about and it is the same as my Canon 7D camera. So even if a camcorder has a full frame sensor the light falling onto it will still have to undergo a conversion and shrinkage process to convert it into an MTS/MOV file. In the end it depends upon the quality of the encoding algorithm. A RAW camera such as the 2.5k BMD records at a data rate of 5MB/frame (note it is MB and not Mb) so the recording data rate is colossal and in Apple ProRes format too which is a great intermediate editing codec, that comment will be music to Michael's ears

Horses for courses and choice.

[TimStannard]

Tim; I am intrigued by your comment that the BMPC requires a lot of time to set up and that under anything but ideal conditions the VG900 will win out.

Ned, you're twisting my words. Yes I said it takes time to set up, but I certainly did not say that under anything but ideal condidtions the VG900 will win out. I said "under the right conditions" which is far from the same thing.

As for the first comment, about time to set up, I stand by what I said and your comment actually bears it out.

"with a zoom lens (and there are some very good if expensive MFT zooms) and a simple grip with mic mount and some practice the BMPC can be hand held as well as the VG900"

Or you could just unbox a VG900!

I speak from my own practical experience. Like (I hope) most here, I'm fully aware of the importance of capturing good audio. I have a reasonable mic (Sennheiser K6/ME66). My camcorder has a 3.5mm mic input. Therefore I have to connect an XLR-mini jack pre amp (in my case a JuicedLink box - I found it less noisey than the Beachtek). OK, So I can leave that permanently attached to the camera. But even then it's an additional battery to worry about (and I HAVE been caught out - when the sound deteriorates it's another link in the chain - is it the box? is it he camera? its it the battery in the mic? is it the battery in the pre-amp). It's not much, but it all get in the way of getting the thing out and shooting.

I love the images one can get with a DSLR. I love editing and grading. If I wanted to film a cinematic drama, I'd go with the DSLRs or a BMD. And I'd get someone who is far more skilled than me to do the camerawork.

If I'm filming a documentary where I might only get one shot at the interview or action, I'd rather have something I can grab out of the bag and shoot straight away.

Yes, the BMCC (and DSLR) doesn't take a lot of time to set up, when you have time. But if you need to shoot something NOW, anything other than immediate is a lot of time.

I have been sorely tempted to get into this DSLR stuff and when I first heard of the BMD Pocket Camera I imagined I'd buy it immediately it became readily available. But for me, practicality gets in the way and I find myself waiting for the Canon XA20 to hit the streets (and wondering if the XF100 will come down in price as this is a best of/compromise of both worlds.

[TimStannard]

I've just realised my earlier post made no sense as I didn't post the link to the (unscientific) vid comparing full-frame, APS-C and 1/2.88 sensors. Sorry!
http://sonyvideo.wordpress.com/2013/02/ ... -and-vg30/

[tom hardwick]

Hi Tim, thanks for the link. We must assume that all settings were equal for the dof tests, so that taking apertures were the same between cameras. They choose to compare ' bigger than 1/3'' chips' with the other two, but my much-loved SD900 uses smaller than ¼" chips so there's even greater dof and poorer low light sensitivity.

[TimStannard]

Whilst it has no particualr relevace or importance, in this particular test, I subjectively found the APS-C images the most pleasing. Perhaps I'll have to invest in a 7D (or a 550D/600D/650D/700D) after all!

[ned c]

Apologies to Tim for rewriting his comment. Thanks also for the link; interesting.

The BMCC 2.5K camera requires a substantial investment above the purchase price; SSD drive(s); lens(es). All I read suggests that an external battery is essential so it seems that $3,000 will more likely be $5,000 at least (I have to use $ as getting to the pound sign is too messy). I applaud the Sony ventures into interchangeable lens cameras but they seem to struggle fearful of their prosumer cameras cannibalising their low end professional cameras. (I am sure that Sony Broadcast remember what the VX1000 did to their business!). These really are interesting times; glad I lived this long.

I do have a regular consumer camcorder that delivers astonishingly good results; a Canon Vixia HF G10 probably has a different name in Europe but the best bang for the buck I have.

Best to all

ned c

[TimStannard]

Apologies to Tim for rewriting his comment.

None needed. Upon reading back I see my retort could be taken as a reprimand rather than a correction which was what was intended. (I should have used a smiley )

I do have a regular consumer camcorder that delivers astonishingly good results; a Canon Vixia HF G10 probably has a different name in Europe but the best bang for the buck I have.

I'm delighted to hear you say that. I'm very interested in the XA20 which should have been launched by now. It supersedes the XA10 which is a G10 with XLRs and InfraRed (I believe the G10 has had a couple of interim updates and is now the G25, which is all rather confusing). Of course, it remains to be seen if the "improvements" are real improvements (the 20x zoom is useful) and whether there are any disadvantaged (they've dropped the built in memory, which doesn't particularly bother me)

[Michael Slowe]

As has been written, it does depend on what genre film you are making. For me, a documentary maker, many of the cameras being mentioned would be useless. I nowadays shoot my material very much 'on the hoof' and having to stop and change lenses everytime I have to frame a shot would destroy the 'here and now'.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what I consider the best all round cameras available, namely the Sony EX 1 (now replaced by the PMW 200 but basically the same), and, if you really want interchangeable lenses, the EX 3. They have half inch sensors, giving ample opportunity for shallow DOF and they shoot at 35 mbps (admittedly at a variable rate). The comprehensive menus give every choice of Picture Profile, you can shoot many different formats and the pictures are great. I could never make my films without this flexibility.

Col, yes, I'm amazed you gave a favourable mention to the ProRes codec. It is the codec of choice currently in the pro world, both for acquisition and editing, but I know you think it won't stand the test of time, but then, nor will we!

[tom hardwick]

I'm with Michael. The speed and flexibility of cameras such as the EX1 make run 'n' gun shooting bearable and possible. I know there are wedding shooters who work in pairs using large format DSLRs, but I bet they can't catch the shots I get with my deep dof covering mistakes and 20x zooms taking me from here to there at the (rapid) turn of a zoom ring. But then again, Michael and I have to fight for limited dof.