Filming in Public - revisited

[TimStannard]

Not exactly filming in public, but putting the results of such filming on public display (eg Vimeo, YouTube)

Yesterday I filmed a local Remembrance Service and put it on YouTube (publicly available). Technically it's a lousy film, but people like the memories - especially those who weren't able to see their son/daughter as a Guide/Scout/Cadet on parade or laying wreaths.

I was therefore somewhat surprised to receive a phone call from Brown Owl of my daughter's Brownie pack, panicing because they send out a general (ie not specifically for this event) consent form about use of photos or videos and some parents refuse permission. She asked me to remove it. I've never had this before, most people seem very happy for local events to be recorded and put on public display.

I told her not to worry as I wasn't acting for the Brownies, I hadn't identified anyone by name or even Brownie pack (indeed the only identification in the video was the name of the town). I also regurgitated the stuff about being able to film in a public place and people have a "reasonable expectation to be on display" at a public event.

Then, of course, the doubts creep in. All the advice I seem to read is about filming - not the distribution of a finished product.

Any comments? Or better still cut and dried knowledge of where I(we) stand?

[Dave Watterson]

I am not a lawyer, but I do not think the Brownie leader or any parent can object. You were filming a public event where the children were "on display" and presumably not being portrayed in any lewd or lascivious manner (!). There can be occasions when discretion is necessary. For example when there is a custody dispute, a parent may not want any image of their child to be shown in case it helps their ex-partner to track them down. In that case I cannot imagine they would allow the child to take part in a public event.

If the event happened in private premises the owner can set out any rules they like about filming .... it is on this basis that many schools forbid photography or video making on their grounds. But in public places I think you have every right to film them.

As for how it is shown ... the general public expects films to be shown to an audience. I do not think how that is done has any relevance.

You may want to accede to her request for the sake of local peace and harmony, but that is another matter.

Dave

[TimStannard]

Thanks, Dave. That was exactly my thinking - I just wanted to check I was thinking straight!

There isn't a peace and harmony issue with Brown Owl - she was very relieved when I pointed out she wasn't responsible in any way as I wasn't filming on behalf of the Brownies. I think she just wanted to cover her own back. In fact she sent a text thanking me for explaining the situation.

[Chrisbitz]

The thing you need to ask yourself is, - Did the brownies have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" during what they were doing?

Cases where you might have a reasonable expectation might be: in your bathroom, at a private event, in your garden. In the middle of the high street, during a busy event IS NOT ONE OF THEM!

If you don't want to be seen/filmed, don't go out in public.

In my personal opinion, Brown Owl is fuelling pedophile hysteria, and I wonder if she really ought to be in charge of children with such simple minded ideas?

[Dave Watterson]

I feel a bit the same, Chrisbitz, but the Brown Owl concerned is like 99% of the people out there who do not know, let alone understand, what the relevant laws are. Her concern is to do right by the youngsters in her care, so erring on the side of caution is not a bad way to be.

I once helped a senior school with its magazine and website. The school could set whatever rules it liked about photography since its grounds were private property. They followed their local authority guidelines. So we could include a picture of one girl winning a hurdle race without her name on the caption. Elsewhere we could include in the text her first name: "Fiona won hurdles." But on some pages that resulted in "Fiona" apprearing to be some sporting superwoman since her name appeared all over the place. It happened that there were several different sporting sinners called "Fiona" ... When it came to the art department some of the best work was also by "Fiona" ...

The girls at the school thought this as stupid as I did. They were well aware that there were a couple of "funny old men" who hung around the school grounds and gates and liked to watch them. They were not worried and sometimes even enjoyed taunting those guys.

So far as I know it is still the case that the majority of crimes against children are done by close friends and relatives. The chances of some stranger identifying a child from a film and using that knowledge to start a friendship and grooming process is pretty slim.

Dave

[TimStannard]

The thing you need to ask yourself is, - Did the brownies have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" during what they were doing?

Indeed, chris, and that was the basis of my argument. However, everything that's written about this seems to be in relation to filming and I just wonder whethere it's been tested (in the courts or maybe not got that far) in terms of publication/distribution/broadcast - or whatever you like to call a public forum such as YouTube. I imagine the same rules apply. But I don't know.

[john ingham]

Even though you did nothing wrong tim, i can understand why you would think twice, there seems to me so many mis-understandings these days about most things
yet at the same time the official bodies just go ahead and do it..let me enlighten

I was on a beach at Oxwich in the gower south wales..my friend knew there was a fishing competition on and rang me ... thats a nice blue top your wearing he said.... i looked around to see if i could spot his massive camper..he was laughing

he was 80 miles away (home) watching me on the hotels beach webcam on his lap top
http://www.oxwichbayhotel.co.uk/location/live-web-cam/

and the one we have here in Exmouth can be operated by you

http://www.electrocam.co.uk

just to finish off..most kids these days wouldn't think twice about filming their friends on their camera's and uploading to FB or YT within minutes..its just us adults who are walking on broken glass