JVC DV Player/Recorder & Sony AX2000e camera

[ned c]

Chritsbitz - if you have an HD camera and shoot SD you are missing out on an interesting phenomenon; SD DVDs created from HD originals look very good, generally better than SD to SD DVDs, I don't know the technical reason for this but it is so. I assume your camera shoots HDV rather than AVCHD in which case most recent computers/software will handle it easily. Whilst I agree that the creativity is overwhelmingly important it benefits from well shot/recorded material seen on a very large screen. Another way to make SD DVDs look good is to use a "line doubling" DVD player.

Willy, I know how you feel about learning a new program; I have been there several times as I started with EditDV that became Cinestream and then vanished so I moved to Final Cut which I still use (I started at v3 and now at v7) plus back-up programs on a PC (Vegas Platinum; Corel VideoStudio ProX3 and now a trial of Edius Neo 3). regarding your cellar full of tapes; take the time to transfer to DVDs; I know that recovering from DVDs is not the best route but I did it recently with remarkably good results; this is one of the reasons I have so many programs; they all do differnet things well; Corel for ripping DVDs is just outstanding and also for capturing stills from video. But I digress. Good luck with your hunt!!

Ned c

[tom hardwick]

Hi Willy,

I'm not sure what's meant when you say, 'I asked the "Format C- shopkeeper" if the shootings taken with new HD-camera didn't show any vibration ("wobblings" in English?) in pans. He was honest. He said yes.'

I wonder if he was thinking of 25p (progressive) shooting when he said this? There will be no difference whatsoever between pans shot on your VX2k1 and any modern AVCHD camcorder - but only of course if the new camera shoots in the interlaced (or 50p) mode.

So don't worry - any replacement for your Sony VX will have better image stabilisation, be sharper, will be widescreen and have a much better side-screen. It'll also be (relatively) cheaper and maybe smaller and lighter. Have a read of my review in the next FVM of the Panasonic TM700 - a little marvel of a camcorder.

And I agree with Ned - copy all your VHS tapes onto DVD and then bin the tapes.

Ned - the FX1 is indeed HDV, and when it's switched into the SD mode the camera does the down-conversion from HDV to SD in-camera, on the fly. The beauty of this is that dropouts on tape are far less damaging, but the losses are as you point out - you lose the chance to make Blu-ray versions of the film, or have DVDs that utilise the extra pixels to give some re-framing on the timeline.

Timeline (post production) down-converters are generally more expensive and more competent than those built into cameras, and that's why DVDs made from an HD timeline tend to look better than those made from an FX1 shooting in the SD mode.

tom.

[Mike Shaw]

Ned:

if you have an HD camera and shoot SD you are missing out on an interesting phenomenon; SD DVDs created from HD originals look very good, generally better than SD to SD DVDs,

That's interesting - I have an FX1 too and do as Chris does - shoot SD as I make movies SD (still!).

I've heard that it is better to shoot HD and download as SD - to edit in SD, but are you saying it is even better still to edit as HD and then output to DVD as S? If so - as I suspect - it means I think its time to bump up my PC. It handles SD without any problems, but doesn't have the guts to handle an HD edit with the same degree of smoothness and is a bit sluggish playing back off the timeline, etc. (Mind you, I am using a pretty power demanding program now - moving from Liquid to Media Composer thanks to the 'Avid offer'. But its fine with SD edits).

It's a darned expensive hobby, isn't it! Always always there needs to be something bigger and better to be bought - and when you have that, everything else has to be updated as well. I should have taken up bird watching, methinks ... Yes, OK ... the binoculars these days are spectacular ....

(hmmm ... was that a pun? ) ...

[tom hardwick]

Mike, if you're shooting in HDV on your FX1 and sending out DV via firewire, then your camera's doing the downconvertion in exactly the same way as it does between chips and tape (in other words when you record in DV).

This in-built downconverter is 'ok', but I guess it costs all of 4/11d - just good enough but no more. Computer driven downconverters can use far more complex and expensive hard and software, they can take longer over the conversion and they almost always do a better job of hiding the aliasing that in-built downconversion gives you. You've probably see this on brick walls and roof tiles.

tom.

[Mike Shaw]

So - its better then to download and edit HD, but make as SD to DVD.

Well, I needed an excuse for a new computer... must rush and tell the wife....

[col lamb]

When an SD tape on tape is captured it is generally to an AVI, if you store on a DVD then I would certainly advise to use the DVD as a storage medium only and hence a data disc and to copy the AVI onto the disc as it is, a 4Gb DVD should hold about 16 minutes of AVI video.

If you change the video from an AVI to an MPG you are applying extra compression to the file.

I can see no benefit of storing SD video on a DVD especially if you downconvert an AVI to an MPG

Better to store 70 Hours of video on a 1TB hard disc and be sure of retaining the quality.

1 hour on hard disc c80p (£56 external hard drive)

1 Hour on DVD c72p (at 18p per disc)

Not worth the hastle or time, copying to hard disc and then copying to DVD, better to just capture straight to the hard drive.

[Willy]

Hi Willy,
I'm not sure what's meant when you say, 'I asked the "Format C- shopkeeper" if the shootings taken with new HD-camera didn't show any vibration ("wobblings" in English?) in pans. He was honest. He said yes.'
.

I have taken a decision. I have bought a new camera!
First an answer to your question, Tom. "The FormatC-shopkeeper admitted that in high definition films camera movements show some vibration or wobbling. So in a tilt up, in a tilt down, in a pan from left to right or vice versa you can see some trembling. But that was two or three years ago!" Maybe you don't agree with the salesman, Tom, but that was what he told me. But now we are two or three years later.

Today I have taken a decision, but first of all I would like to thank you for your good advice, Colin, Tom, Ned, Mike, Chris and other ones.

I went back to "FormatC" this morning with the intention to buy a sony HDR-AX2000e.
It happens to me that I have to film in poor light circumstances. This problem can be solved by using spotlights. Yesterday one of my clubmates bought a sony HXRM 2000e 'shoulder camera' at FormatC Excellent camera, but not to shoot in poor light circumstances. My friend Jean does not mind because he has all sorts of lamps or lights. The salesman said that my friend had made a good choice. Jean's new camera is also cheap compared with other ones in that category. It costs about 1,600 euro. Jean hoped that I would buy the same camera. But I hesitated.

8 out of 10!
So I thought : the HDR-AX2000e is the camera for me because it gives excellent picture quality even when the sun is not shining. It is also user-friendly. The salesman, however, tried to recommend the more expensive one : the HXR-NX5. Better image quality than the HDR-AX2000e he said! It's very easy to swap cards. There are two slots. It is also a better camera to adjust the sound while filming. Etc...

I believed him. I also remembered the articles written by Tom in "Film & Video Maker" (issues December and February). Moreover I can use my old batteries (my old camera is a sony 2100). Tom gives the NX5 8 out of 10 in his articles

An excellent camera makes excellent films. Nonsense!
"A HDR-AX2000e is a camera for semi-professionals. A HXR-NX5 for professionals!", the salesman told me. In my opinion that is commercial language. You can also make professional films with consumer cameras. It is not the quality of the camera that is qualifying. It is the creativity of the filmmaker. Sometimes friends think : "I must buy an excellent camera. Then I can make excellent films!". Of course that's big nonsense.

Panasonic Ideas for Life!
I asked the salesman what he thinks about the panasonic HMC151. "FormatC" also sells panasonic cameras. He said that it is an excellent one and that it is much cheaper. However, difference in price also means difference in quality. Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Canon etc... compare the qualities of their newly made cameras to know what price to set.

Price Quality
My new camera will be delivered at the end of March. So before BIAFF. That's what they have promised.
Then I will be a poor man with a rich camera. Why not telling you the price? You can see it on websites : It costs 3,670 euros + MS Prohx (memory card) 131,00 euros + VAT 798,30 euros. So it means 4,599,70 euros.

"Do not buy cameras from Signapore!"
I told the salesman that I could have bought it online for a lower price. At Pixmania in Brussels or London for instace. At Pixmania they are 400 or 500 euros cheaper!
"Good that you have not done it, " he told me. Firms like that buy their cameras in Signapore or somewhere else in the world. Each camera has a production number. If there is something wrong with the camera you cannot have it repaired. We must also protect our European market!

[tom hardwick]

Congratulations Willy, you've made an excellent choice in my view and I'm sure the AX2k will fulfill your wish-list for many years to come.

But, but, but. The salesman over at FormatC needs what politically-correct people here know as 're-training'. Firstly 3 years ago HD cameras were no more 'wobbly' than anything SD. Secondly the NX5's picture quality is no different whatsoever from the AX's, unless you count menu-digging pixel-peepers as film-makers. Then there's the two card slots - both cameras have this, and the audio controls on the cameras (see my article pictures) are identical. Then all that utter nonsense about not being able to get cameras bought at Pixmania repaired. The guy need a good stern talking to. Sony cameras sold in Singapore are exactly the same as ones sold in Iceland.

The NX5 will allow you to film longer slo-mo sequences and it will allow you to attach the 128gb storage box (at a price). There are other differences but it's like the VX2k1 vs the PD170 - they're hard to spot.

tom.

[Mike Shaw]

I unwittingly bought a 'grey-import' FX1 - discovered only when I opened the box to find there was no Warranty card. In panic and despair I rang the Supplier and he said 'not to worry about that - if there is anything wrong at all they will replace it or have it repaired under the same terms'. Still feeling uneasy about it I rang Sony here in the UK, and they said not to worry: the 'grey-import' problem was a thing of the past. They'd be happy to repair it if anything went wrong or it needed attention. (Mind you, I expect that would be 'at a price!).

I'm happy to say (touch wood and whistle) it has worked perfectly for me. Why did I want that cam over the one I'd bought only a few months earlier - an HC7? Manual controls (no on-screen poking). Less fiddly. And also, an even more bizarre reason perhaps - it actually looks like the user knows what he is doing. That may sound like a joke, but when filming on a shoot in a fairly public place with the HC7(even on a tripod), people didn't care, got in the way. Put the FX1 on a tripod and people keep out of the way - even offer to hold up traffic (yes, that happened for us as well ...). On that score alone, the FX1 was worth its weight in gold. But it is also much nicer to be able to manhandle the actual controls than poke around on a screen while actors/talent etc. twiddle their thumbs asking 'Is this going to take long?' . Do I make better films with it? No. Same old rubbish. But I feel better making them.

[Willy]

I unwittingly bought a 'grey-import' FX1 -
...
(touch wood and whistle)
.

It's plain as a pikestaff. These discussions are interesting. I can also learn some English idioms. "Touch wood and whistle" for instance. In Holland and Belgium we only touch wood.

But now you have created new mixed feelings, Mike. Imagine that I would have bought my HXR-NX5E at Pixmania in Brussels ? I would have "earned" 500 euros And knowing that I could go to England for that money.... £80 to £90 per night per room in a four poster bed nowadays! Enough to spend one week together with my wife in a nice B&B somewhere in Kent and make a film about your beautiful Garden of England when using m new camera. But Pixamania is only a shop with shelves and without real experts. You give the money. They give the box with camera in it. They say "Goodbye cheerio!" with or even without any smile on their face and they think : "We've caught a new big fish again! Poor guy!".

In FormatC I could have a discussion with the salesman. I could take him in confidence. But to tell you the truth. I do not trust any salesman. One of my bad characteristics is : I am very naive. It's easy to overwhelm me with words. Hopefully I am lucky with my camera. I feel it : I am going to win the Daily Mail Trophy next year! (Please, do not believe me)

By the way, that FormatC salesman has earned at least 500 euros in half an hour if you compare his price with Pixamania's! Not bad! I can still hear the echo of his last sentence : " We must protect our European market!". But having bought it at "FormatC" gives me one good feeling. This firm has been one of the sponsors of our regional and national festivals. Nowadays it is difficult to find any sponsors (cfr Guernsey). On the other hand ... now I have paid some of his sponsorship to CvB, the Belgian umbrella organisation.

[Michael Slowe]

Well, thank goodness Willy has taken the big step, I was starting to lose sleep over it!

Although I haven't contributed I have found the thread fascinating. A number of separate topics were addressed, so much so that I expected our stern moderator to issue a warning but none came. Therefore may I comment on one of the topics?

The question of getting the best DVD's was discussed and I have to say that my experience matches those who maintain that original HD material will make better DVD's (SD of course by definition) than original SD material. I shoot in HD and remain there throughout the whole process of editing. I import the media as Apple ProRes HQ 422 which, although saving loads of storage space, loses very little indeed in the way of picture quality. As Tom has pointed out, the key to good DVD's from HD is with the downscale. Camera downscales are not the best and some edit systems not that much better. Good dedicated kit like the Matrox, AJA or Black Magic boxes do it far better but they do cost. I have found that the best for me is within the BitVice DVD encoder. It takes a long time but the new versions are better in this respect and the results really so good that mine are now beating tape for quality. For Blu-Ray discs (and anyone shooting in HD should now aim to make BD's to get the best out of HD) I can do this from an HD export from my timeline with Toast 10. All you need is a stand alone BD burner which connects to the computer (in my case Apple MacPro) through USB 2.

Someone mentioned transferring from VHS to DVD. By all means of course this is best BUT beware of Tom's warnings of DVD longevity. Keep the material also on DV tape. In the process of transfer I go to DV tape from the VHS anyway before making the DVD so my real archive of all those VHS tapes is the intermediate DV tape.

A word to Mike Shaw. I believe you are connected to a club down in Chichester aren't you? I have a visit scheduled for March to do an evening there, look forward to a good chat then!

[Mike Shaw]

Sadly Michael I m not a member of Chichester, or even in that region - I belong to the Orpington mob. I say sadly because it means I will miss the opportunity for a chat. By one of those strange strokes of fate or coincedence, not an hour ago I was loading old copies of FVM into binders, and in the process came across your article on your approach to Documentaries (2003 I think) - which delayed my task somewhat as I read it through with great interest. I tend to make very short inconsequential gap-fillers, usually involving some special effect or other (which I find a challenge), but for the past five years - I have also been making a documentary about the early life of a well renowned and much loved author, yet has a poor reputation as a 'person': I believe her attitudes and so on (yes, the author is a 'she') are the result of her childhood, and hopefully this documentary will reveal possible reaons without them being overtly stated. Your article has helped to clarify some of the things I have been wrestling with.

And yes, that is another wander off topic. But what the heck... A little bit of colour round the edges doesn't hurt ... occasionally...

[Willy]

Dear friends,
Perhaps you remember that I bought a sony NX5 some months ago. This camera has been recommended in "Film and Video Magazine". Tom gave it 8 out of 10. Now I have some experience. I still find my previous one, a sony 2000, the best camera in the world. The colours are warm. The image quality is excellent. You cannot see the difference with high definition images with the naked eye. Unfortunately something happened to my camera. Having repaired it or not? That was the question. Maybe it's time to buy a camera that works with cards instead of tapes I thought.

Now I have the feeling that my NX 5 is too sophisticated. It has too many buttons. My friend Werner, who is a camera man who works for Belgian Televison One, has also bought such a camera. He says that the auto focus is rather poor. When making a pan it is always trying to find sharpness.

I myself always film in manual function. So I don't think it is a serious problem. But ... (I am trying to explain it in English now) ... my sony NX5 is an impressive sophisticated machine, but it has no exposure button!

Imagine I am filming a man who is moving from the left to the right or vice versa. He is more or less in close up. Using my sony 2000 I pushed on my exposure button. The light was fixed. But using my sony NX5 the light changes when the man is disappearing. You can see a slight flash light for a fraction of a second when he is out of the image. Hopefully you understand what I mean. My technically knowledge is rather poor.

Is there anybody who can help me? I already tried to use the iris button on my sony NX5, but it didn't help. The light changed. Today I stuck a photo on my window. The iris said 6. I pushed on the iris button. I zoomed out. Unfortunately the photo was dark when I had zoomed out. I know that there was too much light outside, but with an exposure button I would not have had such a problem. I am not worried you know. In the mean time I have found a solution. I have stuck the photo on one of the white cupboards in my living-room. I could zoom in and out without a change of light.

When making a tilt down of a church at a short distance you should always be able to fix the light. I have the impression that this is not possible with my professional NX5.

[tom hardwick]

Willy, you haven't got your NX5 in the manual mode, that's why you're seeing the exposure change. You have to have the slider switch above the menu control wheel on the MANUAL setting. Then the aperture, the gain and the shutter speed must NOT have an A in front of them. If any of these have an A then they'll be in automatic, even with that slider switch in the manual (rearwards) position.

It was the same with your VX2000 - if any of those disciplines weren't visible on screen, they were in the auto mode. I've no idea what you mean when you say the NX5 has no exposure button. It has, and it's marked 'iris'.

I'm flabbergasted that you say. 'You cannot see the difference with high definition images with the naked eye'. I've just done a demonstration to a London video club and by the end of the evening every single person could see the huge difference between SD and HD.

Werner is correct about the auto-focus while panning. The NX5 is very poor at holding focus in pans, and the VX2k was far better.

Sounds like you need a tom training day. Next time you're over in England bring the NX5 to my door and I'll teach you everything about it, and set up your PP settings in the menu, too.

tom.

[Dave Watterson]

There's an irresistible offer! Not that you need much temptation to come to Britain!

Dave