JVC DV Player/Recorder & Sony AX2000e camera

[Willy]

My dear British friends,
Eric Vanoverschelde is one of our most energetic Belgian filmmakers. He has already taken part in BIAFF and the Guernsey Lily. Now he has asked me the following question :
"Is there anyone who knows an Expandore shop in London ?" Who could give me an address?

Eric would like to buy a DV recorder : JVC Professional DV Player/Recorder BE-DV3000E in London. His son-in-law goes to London very often. It is much cheaper in Britain than in our "non-existing" country. I feel ashamed to be a Belgian at this moment. Life is super here, but we have no government. If we would have a government, a JVC Professional DV Player would be cheaper here I guess.

Now I think of buying a sony AX2000e camera. It is not so sophisticated as the sony HXR-NX5 presented by our friend Tom Hardwick in "Film & Video Maker". If I buy a sony AX2000e camera I can afford one more journey to the British Isles this year and moreover this camera seems to be more user-friendly. My technical brains are very poor. That's why I need a simple camera.

Is there anyone who has experience with a sony AX2000e? Perhaps Tom Hardwick himself. Maybe this camera is cheaper in the UK. In Belgium it costs 4000 euros (VAT included)

[col lamb]

Willy

I am not a Sony user But I have a Panasonic AG HMC 151 nthat I bought from

http://www.sirentechnology.co.uk/produc ... cts_id/524

I have bought a few things from Simon and if you ring him he may be able to get one for you. They are just north of Manchester

I have just done a quick search on our websites.

Creative Video have been around for a while, so has PlanetDV who I have purchased from.

Creative are in Studley in the Midlands. and Planet are near Bradford

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.ph ... ny_hvr-a1e £2154 inclusive of VAT

http://www.planetdv.net/Content/By_Manufacturer/Sony/ call for price.

Being a Sony man I am sure Tom H will post details of his supplier for you

Hope this helps

Col

[Willy]

Willy

I am not a Sony user But I have a Panasonic AG HMC 151 nthat I bought from
http://www.sirentechnology.co.uk/produc ... cts_id/524
Col

Yes, that helps Col. Many thanks.

About buying a new camera :
Today I started to hesitate again. In the "Middle Ages" I always went to a Panasonic dealer. He was very helpful. A few days ago I sent a message to him. I asked him if there is an alternative for a Sony AX2000e. Today he replied. I have tried to translate what he has written : "Sony AX2000e has problems with rolling shutter effects (wobble, skew...) and it is limited to 1080i. The Panasonic HM151 1080i, however, also has superior formats 720p50 and 1080p25. The Panasonic HMC151 costs 3,000 euros + 25% VAT, but the quality is much better. If I were you I would buy a Panasonic HMC151." Who do I have to believe? Are you happy with your Panasonic HM151, Col? I always change my mind, but I must take a decision in some weeks because Spring is there and I want to get used to my new camera before starting a new serious project.

[col lamb]

Willy

I am lucky, I bought my 151 before the prices took a great leap upwards but if I were in the market today I would still buy the 151 in preference to a Sony as the Z5 or NX 5 are just so expensive.

I am very happy with the camcorder as it does all I want and more. The sound from the fixed mike is pretty good but for serious movie making I use a Sennheiser shotgun to record one channel and leave the other channel recording via the onboard mike.

To get the best out of the camcorder there are a few menu settings to change and that improves the quality to a very noticable degree.

I did get an extended battery at £200 and a batch of 16Gb class 6 SD cards and that is all, no more tapes, yes.

Panasonic also make an AG HMC 41 which at about £1900 including VAT is a less expensive model and reviews of it have been very good but I have not tried one myself.

I have seen quite a few of your excellent movies but I am not sure just how you edit them, what I am getting at is that solid state AVCHD camcorders do require quite a powerful PC or MAC. For more information on AVCHD please re-visit the copies of the FVM magazine and re-read the articles I wrote on the subject, if you have any queries please post and I will try to answer them.

Finally you may like to visit Nigel's http://www.dvuser.co.uk/ website has he has undertaken reviews of a wide range of camcorders including the Panasonic and Sony models.

Good Luck

[tom hardwick]

Willy - if you're coming from a Sony background such as the FX1 say, then you will find that you settle into the AX2000's menus and operating system very quickly. You might also have carry-over NP-F batteries, car charger, Lanc remote and so on that will work on the AX2k, and these might all be deciding factors for your new camera buying. And as the AX2k and the NX5 are one and the same camera I do indeed have some experience that you can call on.

The AX2k is a mighty fine camera and its high price alongside the Panasonic HMC151 would be explained in about 2 minutes if you had both cameras on a table in front of you. This is not to to be taken as a dismissal of the 151 in any way as it produces startlingly good results, but (as its price points out) it's not in the same class as the Sony, and nor is it meant to be.

When the 151 arrived on the scene it was eye-poppingly cheap and was a no-brainer in the AVCHD market - hundreds of them were sold. But your dealer tells you fibs which you describe as 'very helpful'. OK, the 151 doesn't have rolling shutter downsides that I've been at pains to point out in my articles, but it avoids these effects simply by clinging to lower resolution CCDs rather than by going the full-rez CMOS Sony route.

The 151 doesn't have 'superior formats', in fact the interpolation needed from the chips means 1080i footage is not good enough, and 151 users are recommended to film in the lower resolution 720p format where the camera actually performs at its best. With the AX2k you can film in any format you choose, as it uses full res chips.

But let me say this. If you bought a 151 you'd be very happy with it I'm sure. It may be getting a bit old now (short zoom, only one card slot, CCDs etc) but good films are made by imaginative people, not by expensive cameras. You've got to ask yourself if you need the 20x zoom, the slo-mo, the high res top screen, the better low light performance of the AX. Do you?

The AX2k is so close in price to the NX5 that I wonder why anyone would buy it and not spend the few dollars more for the NX5. But there again, you're widening the price gap, and the 151 starts to look very attractive once again. And as Colin says, the HMC41 is worth a look, though I feel it's very expensive for its limited specification. Sony, JVC and Canon have all got HMC41 competitors in the same price range, so this type of 'compact professional' camera has a good market out there.

I was talking to Nigel 'DV User' yesterday at the BVE show at Earl's Court. I put across the point that his tests of cameras were far more 'forgiving' than mine in FVM and he agreed (he's written articles for FVM). Of course his magazine carries a lot of very valuable advertising and we sort of know where this is leading, don't we?

tom.

[col lamb]

Willy
Wth all due respect to Tom, I have used the 151 for two years and I am delighted with the results, reviewers have the camcorder for a few days.

It is unclear if the reviewer who posted the sweet spot of 720p recording had made the alterations to the settings which DV User Nigel explains in his review, it makes all the difference. The 151 actually receives the images at the chip in 1080p, all other camcorders receive images at different resolutions and they ALL process the information into the format that the settings call for. Thus, it is the quality of the lens and the electronic circuitry and related processing algorythms that really matter. Electronics is something I have studied at Degree level and so I know my way around systems.

When projected onto our Club screen via our HD projector there is no visible picture difference between video from both the Panasonic 151 and the Sony NX5. There again the video from my small Sony TG3 palmcorder and Canon 7D DSLR both look great as well.

With a decent HD camcorder the video will be stunning, another club member has a Panasonic 300 which produces great video and is a fraction the cost of the Sony 2000 and NX5 and Panasonic 151.

By the way I always shoot at 1080i

DV User rates the NX 5 at 8 out of 10 so there are some limitations, but it is a very good camcorder
The reviews of the AX 2000 have been a mixed bag
The Panasonic 151 is not as well specified as the Sony and has been built to a budget but gets pretty good reviews

Now the 151 does have a very major advantage over the NX5 and that is its £700 cheaper, that is the cost of another camcorder or a Canon 550D DSLR (HD video capable).

The absolute best advice you will receive follows............................................get a class 6 SDHC card and use it to record video in all the camcorders you are interested in, take the card home and see the results on your PC. Then buy what you see as the most suitable camcorder for your needs.

Assessing what to buy can be very confusing and conflicting, Good luck.

[tom hardwick]

Hi Col,

Not sure what you mean when you say, 'The 151 actually receives the images at the chip in 1080p' because Panasonic clearly point out that the 151 uses three 960 x 540 ccds arranged in quincunx to get more vertical and horizontal resolution at the expense of diagonal resolution and coloured aliasing.

In which case, 720p is possibly a better acquisition format than 1080i or 1080p, being easier to down-scale without such obvious "moire" interference patterns. You can do 50p at 720 lines, too, which should give nice smooth motion. The HMC150 claim is "full 1080p recording" - but its chipset can only manage about 1100x650 under test. It may be able to make a 1080p recording - but the resolution will still only be less than a 720p recording is capable of showing.

But as I say, I've been highly impressed watching 151 footage close up on Holdan's 50'' plasma.

tom.

[col lamb]

Tom

Direct from Panasonic's own advertising................High-Resolution Native Progressive 1080/50p Scan. Progressive to interlace conversion, cross conversion and down conversion all start with the 1080/50p scan.

Just because a CCD or CMOS does not have a native resolution of 1920x1080 does not mean that a full HD 1920x180 video cannot be produced. Assuming the lens is up to the job (and I am presuming that a Leica Dicomar is) then the CCD will aquire the image but and it is a big but the quality of the recorded image is then due entirely to the electronic processing circuitry and the manipulation processes (algorythms) that occur.

I am not sure if they still do it with their cameras but I had a Fuji digital stills camaera with a 2Meg chip that produced 6 Meg images, it is all down to the processing between the chip and the storage memory.

If I restore my 151 to its default factory settings then yes 720p image is slightly and I do mean slightly better than 1080i, then if I make the changes to the settings as per Nigel Cooper's advice then for me the difference is erroded completely.

One thing is for sure, an image from a 151 and an image from an NX5 when seen one after the other does not justify the vast £700 difference in price.

I would rather have my 151 and £700 in my pocket, I'l not telling Willy to go out and buy a 151 but to actively consider it a viable and considerably cheaper alternative.

The video on my 42" plasma is stunning as is that from the NX5 and also my Sony TG3, the reality is that for the vast majority of video the firrerence between a £500 camcorder and a £3500 is not that much. It is only when getting a bit more creative or in low light that the expensive kits comes ito its own. My Wife has a Panasonix ZX1 digital stills camera that records video in 720p/30 mode and its images when projected againg at our club could not be differentiated from a full HD camcorder.

Now on our club's HD projector if we see images from one of our members NX5 against images from another friends camera then the NX5 is second best, if we compare it with another camera of mine then the NX5 becomes third best. The best video images we have at our club come from Canon DSLR's, a 5D Mk II and my own 7D whch you will have read about in FVM. Make allowances for the limitations of DSLR video when you shoot and the image quality will be superb, especially if one shoots with an L grade lens (L grade is Canon's Prefessional quality lens).

Have you had your hands on the Sony HXR-MC50e? This may be a much cheaper alternative if it is any good, I have not taken much interest in it myself but it seems to all have that the much more expensive Panasonic 41 does.

[ned c]

My feeling is that this is a bad time to consider buying a new camera as there are a number of developments happening but not yet fully realised.

For example, the use of DSLRs for film making has galvanised the major camcorder makers into a response in the professional arena with the Panasonic AG AF100 (4/3rds sensor) and the Sony PMW F3K; (35 mm sensor) with interchangeable lens mounts so that a very wide range of lenses may be used but in a camcorder form with XLR sound inputs. Both are priced out of the pocket of most n-c film makers but there is the Sony NEX VG10 which has an APS size sensor and interchangeable lenses and priced here in the USA at $2,000 with one lens.

Image quality is the product of a number of processes of which the pixel count/size is but one. First the lens; this is why the DSLRs have found such favor; a range of very high quality lenses and a large target sensor with the resulting control of DoF and high quality images; but there are disadvantages as well. Then there is the recording rate i.e. mbps; the compression format, the digital signal processing and the color space. In the end look at the pictures on a large screen. I have material shot on a Hi8 camera with a 3 x 1/2 inch CCD block and interchangeable lenses that delivered superb SD pictures; similarly from an ancient VX1000E that challenged Betacam SP in its day!

Great picture/sound qulaity is important but neither are a substitute for creativity.

ned c

[Willy]

My feeling is that this is a bad time to consider buying a new camera as there are a number of developments happening but not yet fully realised.


ned c

Altogether about 6,850 euros!
Many thanks, Colin, Tom and Ned for your advice. To be honest I have not taken a decision yet. Moreover, I am a bit scared ! Imagine that I buy a new camera for let's say 4,000 euros. That's about £3,500 I think. Or $4000. But I must also buy a new casablanca! A casablanca 6000 costs 2,850 euros.

ImaSamuel Johnson said ... :
A short time after I have bought the new camera I am disappointed about the quality! Then it is possible that I commit suicide. "When you're tired of London, you are tired of life!" the author Samuel Johnson said. Now I am sure : "When I am tired of filmmaking, I am tired of life". It's too early to retire as a filmmaker. It seemed to be nonsense to consider retiring.
Some friends laughed at me.

The big problem is that I can't use my old Sony 2100 anymore. It is completely out of order. And spring is almost there ! (I am not talking about the making of a new Belgian government. Yesterday Belgium beat Irak! The longest period without a government. We are the world record holders and we celebrated it in some cities. Stupid Belgians!)

That's not fair, is it?
Maybe it is interesting to know the following things :
I asked Sony Center Wijnegem a price for a sony HDR-AX2000E : 4,000 euros (VAT and battery included). Wijnegem is about 15 miles from my house. I have an offer on paper. I also asked Sony Center Lier a price for the same camera. Lier is about 5 miles from my house. I have a message in my computer. The result : 4,300 euros (VAT included, but not battery)! A difference of at least 300 euros. That's quite a lot of money. That's not fair! Tom, could you tell Sony? I am sure you agree with me. That's something ridiculous.
Moreover you can buy one at Pixmania (see website) for about 3350 euros on line. A difference of 650 euros! You can also go and get it. There is a Pixmania shop in Brussels.

In both sony centers, Wijnegem and Lier, I saw the sony NEX VG10. Amazing the design of this camera. It looks like a photo camera. Not like a film camera. The microphone is totally different. I looks attractive. Price : 2,000 euros (so $2,000 as Ned said). It means much cheaper than the sony AX2000e and the panasonic 151. My question, Ned. Would you rather buy a NEX VG10 than an AX2000e? Is the frame size also 16:9 or 4:3? The picture quality seems to be excellent according to some tests. Is it with memory cards like in the other ones ? Etc... Etc...

In one of the sony centers the shopkeeper didn't seem to know anything about cameras. They didn't help me though I I hope don't look like a scared chicken (=Dutch expression). In the other one they just gave me a price on a sheet of paper.
They were kind, but I think they were not very motivated enough to sell cameras.

It's a bad time to buy a new camera, Ned, but what can I do ?

By the way : I have read your articles again in "Film and Video Magazine", Tom and Colin. I have enjoyed them and I have given these magazines to some friends of mine. And many thanks again for your replies.

[tom hardwick]

Rest assured Willy, the VG10 is a 16:9 camera. Anything HD (or HDV) has to be 16:9 by design.
Now I happen to believe that right now is an excellent time to buy a camera. They're all startlingly good and in real terms have never been cheaper - did you see my comment in Positive Image about the price of the VX1000 in 1995?

We all get older. Every day we get older. The time to buy is now or yesterday. Technical developments are accelerating as changes come faster and faster and computers design the computers. A VG10 or AX2k? They're aimed at different filmmakers and you've got to ask yourself which one you are. You know what the AX is like - it's like your VX2k1. You don't know what the VG is like so you'll have to hunt one down and have a play with it.

tom.

[ned c]

Willy, don't despair!! First, editing is in many ways the most exciting part of movie making and with the rapidly moving developments you need an edit system that can expand to meet the developments. The problem with the dedicated edit systems such as Casablanca is that they are hardware dependent whereas most PC based systems are more software dependent so upgrades are relatively inexpensive.

OK you need a powerful computer to handle highly compressed codecs such as AVCHD but a wise purchase will give you a machine with some future development capability. Why not put your money in your edit system and buy a relatively inexpensive camera such as the 3 chip Panasonic (I don't know the European model number) which sells here for around $800, it records to SDHC cards which are inexpensive. I have an early version and the quality is amazing. It is very small and not very impressive but delivers outstanding pictures and sound (there is some information in the latest issue of Movie Makers and old stuff on the AMPS website). Here are my thoughts; new computer with software in the USA would cost less than $2000 for a powerful machine, Panasonic camera for $700; you are now in to HD. There are a number of excellent and inexpensive edit programs; I am currently trying the free 30 day download of Neo3 and it seems like a winner to me.

just some thoughts,

ned c

[col lamb]

Willy, I agree with Ned.

AVCHD video is a pain to edit, you do have to have the correct PC/MAC/Casablanca to be able to edit the video without a lot of waiting to render.

There are two options with the AVCHD video (1) edit it in its native format (2) transcode it.

(1) requires an editing system than has been designed specifically to handle AVCHD hence it is going to be costly

(2) transcode the video from MTS format into an AVI (or an alterntive), software such as Canopus HQ does it in Edius, Cienform's neoscene also does it and on the MAC its transcodes into Apples AIC format. Not sure how Casablanca handles AVCHD but their S 3000 system says that it handles AVCHD but unfortunately with a Bluray it costs £2000, ouch that costs hurts for a one task only device.

Now I am note sure how fast Casablanca works compared to a PC but the S 3000 has a 2 core 2.8GHz processor and my 2 core 3GHz PC stuttered until the timeline was rendered first and this made editing very slow so I upgraded it to handle AVCHD. Suggest that you check out one before parting with cash.

[Chrisbitz]

I'm not sure how to slot this into the conversation, but I've still been passed by with the whole HD fuss.

Maybe it's because my peer group are also uninterested in HD. I would guess 50% of my club are at least capable of producing HD films, but we don't use it, and vary rarely does the topic raise its head.

I accept that you can see the difference, but as a filmmaker, it's not worth the extra hassle. If my story's good enough then I'd hope that it wouldn't make a difference in a competition whether it's in HD or not.

It just feels like people act as if it will make a mediocre film into a good film, and I wish it didn't feel that way. I'm quite happy watching films on Youtube that are half or less than the resolution of DV, and I thoroughly enjoy them if they're well made in spite of their obvious grainy or blockyness.

If you need a new camera then great, but I have always run my FX-1 in SD mode, and always edited it in SD too, and any computer on the market can edit SD standing on its head!

[Willy]

I'm not sure how to slot this into the conversation, but I've still been passed by with the whole HD fuss.
Maybe it's because my peer group are also uninterested in HD. I would guess 50% of my club are at least capable of producing HD films, but we don't use it, and vary rarely does the topic raise its head...
I accept that you can see the difference, but as a filmmaker, it's not worth the extra hassle. If my story's good enough then I'd hope that it wouldn't make a difference in a competition whether it's in HD or not.

Hello Chris,
Yes, that's right. It is not the camera that makes films. It is the filmmaker. I'm sure that Colin, Tom, Ned and other friends agree with you. Some have even written it in our magazine "Film and Video Maker" and in our forum discussions.

In our last local competition you could not see the difference of image quality mini-DV-films & HD-films. Also because the same projector was used all the time.

But imagine that you have dropped your camera and that you are "obliged" to buy a new one! Then you choose a HD-camera that works with memory cards and sticks and you try to find the best one for the money you can spend on. Some friends in my club have already suggested to buy a second hand camera that works with tapes. Very cheap at this moment. But the tape-era is finished (see other thread forum discussion) and I would like to live for another few years as a filmmaker. The tape will disappear just like the big video-cassettes that disappeared some years ago.

Last week I tidied up my cellar. I found card-board boxes full of video cassettes. Copies of films that I made about ten years ago. My wife wanted to throw them away. It was shocking to hear this. The video-cassettes are still in my cellar. I can better give them to friends rather than throw them away in the container park. But who still shows films on video cassettes? But mind, Chris, I repeat I agree with you!

Also many thanks for your suggestions about the editing system, Colin, Ned and Tom. The problem is that I have been working with a casablanca for 10-15 years! It's so user-friendly. The casablanca-dealer said that the 6000 is the ideal machine to edit tapeless Panasonic or Sony-films. Some years ago Urbain Appeltans, the Daily Mail Trophy winner, offered me to buy a sophisticated pinnacle system after I had crashed with my casablanca. It was my own fault. I gave his friend quite a lot of money for that pinnackle system. But I couldn't work with it! I felt disappointed. Luckily I got my money back. I know that the casablanca is a very expensive machine, but I love it so much. Forgive me. In Belgium there are casablanca-lovers and computer-system-lovers. Just like there are dog-lovers and cat-lovers in England. Though most of my English friends have a cat and a dog. But who can afford a casablanca and a computer-system and work on both of them?

Next Tuesday I am going to a shop called "FormatC" in Antwerp. It sells panasonic and sony cameras. It already sponsored our national umbrella organisation. Also intereresting to know, don't you think so? Sponsorship is so important today! Some years ago I had problems with my sony 1000. I asked the "Format C- shopkeeper" if the shootings taken with new HD-camera didn't show any vibration ("wobblings" in English?) in pans. He was honest. He said yes. He said "Maybe you are right. It is too eaerly to buy a new camera that works with memory sticks or cards. I was surprised. That's why I bought my sony 2100 second hand in Germany. But I will never forget the honesty of that "FormatC-shopkeeper". Maybe he can show me some panasonic and sony-shootings next Tuesday.