This forum...

[Mike Shaw]

Chicken and egg situation I think. Not much in the forum at the moment to attract the masses - or anyone, really - they come, look in, see just one section, and don't bother to return. With just one section to 'browse', the content is a mish-mash.

On the other side of the coin, you start with a host of headings, all empty, and as you say, looks like the ghost town of the internet.

However, most forums start life with fairly empty headers and sub-heads. And, they succeed. In any case, there are ways round not having all empty headers at launch

On the 'see what's new at a gance' argument for having everything under just one heading - most forum software enables 'show all recent posts' to be selected as a viewing option - so you'd get all your 'new' posts selected in one place, at a glance. (We have this option on the beta testing forums I belong to - so that all new 'situations' and test requests can be seen quickly, whilst the forum itself remains structured.

Ever seen the first edition of a magazine or a newspaper? They invariably have a letters to the editor page, or a 'Reader's questions' page. How so? In the first issue? Think about it. The new structured web site could do the same ... The Camcorder sections, for example, could be start with details of the latest camcorders, the Editing sections can be primed with a few starter tips. Each subject heading could have an announcement of what that particular area is for and about.

People coming to a forum with lots of headings will quickly find the particular areas of interest to them, and ignore those that aren't of interest. At the moment, its all in one place, which means wading through to see if there is anything that may be of interest.

Whereas people currently peek in and can't be bothered to stay on (no structure to the posts), with specific areas to ask their questions, or help with answers, there is a greater attraction.

I would be happy to lay a real money bet on a structured forum with lots of headings attracting many times more visitors and posters than the current structure, over a reasonable given time period. Who is prepared to take me on?

Finally Chris, with all due respect and a massive great grin on my face, can I just say its OK if the lunatics take over the asylum, but we shouldn't really allow lunatics who don't belong to our asylum to put their oar in! That really would be madness don'cha think? (Mind you, the 'advertising' idea is quite good ... so not all madness then ...)

[billyfromConsett]

It's a co-incidence, but I'm currently looking at ways that my film club can get more hits on our website. I've mentioned the subject to a guy who works in marketing and a guy who is a computer programmer.
But this forum would look better organised and more professional if there were a number of sections. I wouldn't worry about the 'ghost-forum' look as that's the way new things start up, and also I'm sure we could look through our present forum and bump a few older threads into the new sections.
Anybody who gives time to make this area better I couldn't call a freeloader, but this section is here thanks to subscribers, and if it's to be developed, which costs something, then I think we must have decent section for members. or the complete thing 'a post by members only' rule.
After all the subs aren't much. I pay £75 a year just so I'm allowed to practice in my profession in the NHS.

[stingman]

Ouch. Where did all this come from. You lot must have been bottleling up a load of stuff waiting to explode! One day it was all calm and then the next time I log into the forum, World War 3 has started You lot make me giggle

First of all, I cannot do all the different quotes from people so it`s all in one bag.

If I have said anything over the years that meant that someone stopped their IAC subscription. I say sorry now. Debates can become heated, and some people take it personaly, or just cannot handle it. I would say to them....
GET A LIFE! There are more important things in life then even the IAC! Even winning an argument, or having a Woolworths!

I agree with the extra Forum areas. I`ve been thinking about this for a long time. You would have one for editing, HD, Sound or anything else. It would keep things in order and tidy.

I do believe that the FMV mag, doesn`t, IMHO, praise this Forum! It never hardly mentions it. If you have talk between forum, website and mag then it makes the whole IAC thing more powerful. At the moment it`s disfunctional. It`s one of those things that you sometimes say in life as in `I could do better`. The mag finds it hard to get people to write stuff for it. Include a couple of pages in it of this forum stuff! It`s not hard to work out. It`s alright being the Editor, but do it properly! And some pages look boring in it. December issue page 20 and 27. Two pictures of grumpy people. There not even framed good or exciting to look at. At least take the shot showing everyone and take it from the stage on on a chair.

Dear Billy, i didn`t know how to take your comment. Was it in fun? I thought that you had already seen my Abba films. As being a bit dodgy. At least I don`t upload stuff straight off of the TV like a lot of them do!

Going by what Dave kindly said about us. The IAC can look upon us if it wants to. I`ve offered to be stuff but the posts are already taken by better people. But it may or may not know if we're here! I do think it`s them or us.

Good thread guys but please email me when we have a bit of meat to grind or an argument taking place. I don`t like missing out in all the fun....

Be good guys.......

Stingman

[Mike Shaw]

I seem to remember in one issue of FVM recently there was a column highlighting the 'interesting posts' from this forum. Perhaps it died through lack of interest/interesting posts?

December issue page 20 and 27. Two pictures of grumpy people.

Huh? Assuming you're referring to the group shots, how can you tell they're grumpy? They all look pretty happy to me. Not sure I follow that part of your post.

The IAC main site, magazine, and this forum should, of course, all be inter-related and feed off each other. I think though that there is little to attract the 'browser' here - quick glance at the topics, little of interest to anyone not involved - no areas with tips, answers to specific software problems etc - so its a dip in, and leave. It takes time to build up a good 'attendance'.

Ian - To keep posted on any new messages in any thread, go to the bottom of that thread and you'll see a link "Watch this topic for replies' - click that, and you'll be kept up to date with any new posts in that thread. (If you already knew that, I do apologise - don't want to teach granny to suck eggs and all that... )

Jan has already mentioned that they are looking into creating more forum headings - after sorting out the forum software. That has to be capable of coping of course - and of handling the 1000's of people, world wide, who will be diving in to what will become the erudite site for nc film-makers.

[billyfromConsett]

Stingman - I think you are taking a bit of honest mutiny a bit too far with the comments about grumpy people. It's offensive actually. Free speech needs to be responsible.

[Roy]

I think it would be bad move to stop non members of the IAC contributing to the forum. There is a big big world outside of the IAC and therefore there are more brilliant film makers and technicians available to impart usefull knowledge to the amateur movement who are not members. Unfortunately, and it's only MY opinion, the forum has become to look to the outsider as a Gossip shop. It is wrong also to suggest that other forums demand that you join before participating. Yes you have to join, but the joining is free. The several I use are free anyway, even the most technical. I seem to remenber that clubs used to invite Filmakers to show a night of their films or give talks on technical matters, and the majority of these people were not members of the IAC. If Clubs restricted their guest speakers to IAC members they would never have filled their annual programmes. However Long live the IAC they do well for some of their members, and if they listened more without any bias, they could do well for a lot more.

Roy is on Youtube as RoyfromDurham

[stingman]

Stingman - I think you are taking a bit of honest mutiny a bit too far with the comments about grumpy people. It's offensive actually. Free speech needs to be responsible.

Er no. It`s not offensive actually. They may be smileling a bit, but the camera could have done the whole scene alittle justice.
The picture on page 20 looks like it`s taken in Butlins in the 1950`s! The picture is just a bit boreing IMO. The one on page 27 is better, but it just shows the backs of heads of people. I`m sure the camera person could have chosen a better subject to get his or her point across. Think out of the box!

I could have said grumpy old people because there all older then me. But I didn`t want to go down that road again!

It must be a full moon as everyone is getting scatty and not thinking straight.
Think of ways to encourage each other in this exciting Hobby, and help give the IAC a few ideas. We are blessed to be able to use THIS FORUM. Let`s USE it and encourage each other........

Be good.............

Stingman

[Mike Shaw]

think it would be bad move to stop non members of the IAC contributing to the forum.

Yes - you're probably right. But not a bad move to have a 'members only' area, perhaps. But like I said in my previous post on this - what goes into that 'members only' area? Something of interest only to IAC members, such as membership lists, or ... or ... ?? Still not thought it through properly! My idea was simply to create an area of mystique that might induce the odd one or two people to want to become one of the 'in' crowd. The 'advertisements' for non-IAC visitors could be an approach - even software programs do that sort of thing. Free, with advertisments popping up, or paid for and free of advertisments popping up. You pays your money (or not), and takes your pick. With the forums, the suggestion is IAC members see it ad free, visitors see it with ads - relevant to film-making, hopefully, so not all bad.

We'd certainly get more visitors by making it wide open to all. Hopefully, optimistically, some of those visitors will think they're missing out (on the magazine(?), on having the benefit of a club card, a music clearance system, etc etc) ... and will want to join. That was the idea.

As for the 'grumpy' pictures, I still don't understand - they're just two pictures taken to show reference to an event. How does that make them, or the people in them, grumpy? We're not talking RPS here. We're talking about two quick photos in a magazine by IAC members, for IAC members, showing IAC members (and friends perhaps) enjoying IAC events. Where's the grumps in that?

[Brian Saberton]

Stingman, as the photographer who took the pictures on page 27 of FVM I feel obliged to respond. There is absolutely nothing grumpy about Norman and Dorothy Speirs as the picture clearly shows and I think you owe them an apology. The second photo was simply to illustrate the number of people who were at the occasion.

[Stephen]

don't think a members only forum would work.... not many out there in cyberspace...

but that doesn't mean to say that if it was found necessary to create an area on the forum at a later date, fair enough...

that's the least of the forums problems !

oh... yes..... keep it on subject peeps... its about the forum not errr.. perceived grumpy old men and the quality of photography ... and the state of the footpaths outside my house...

and another thing....



I'll get me coat....

[billyfromConsett]

Stingman - there are three pics on page 27. You didn't make it crystal clear exactly which pics you were were calling. Hopefully you were refering to the group pic, but it still is a bit immature to label the people there as grumpy. Were you there in person?

You suggest we do our bit to encourage each other in the same thread as slagging off two photographers and magazine editor.

If you call that making good use of our forum, well with silly and derogatory points such as your last post, in my view you're not exactly helping.

[Brian Saberton]

I think Billy is right. I've still got steam coming out of my ears after reading that comment about "grumpy" people. I would never claim to be a great photographer but I do know how to get people to smile, or maybe it's the picture of myself that so offends stingman. Well, if you think I look grumpy in that you should see me now!

[Chrisbitz]

When you have too many members, then and only then should you consider having a members only forum.

On the internet, it's all about numbers. A forum without posters is a dead forum, and won't attract new members.

If you're thinking of doing it to attract IAC subscribers, then there's a MUCH better, tried and trusted way to attract new subscribers that's already been discussed at great length, and the management (who apparently all visit and read this forum) will all know about it already.

Until you have 10,000 members, you don't need to worry about limiting stuff to subscribers. As far as a members only area, it never works. Everyone will gravitate towards the most popular one, so if the members only area is best, you'll loose your normal members, and conversely if the public area is most popular, then there's no point to having a members only area.

I agree with what's been said about multiple forum sections, so how about a compromise? Maybe start with 3 very general sections, and then as and when one start to fill up, you can split it - that way you avoid a ghost forum

This forum has been going for nearly 2 years and has 150 memebers. How many members roughly does the IAC have?

[Mike Shaw]

This forum has been going for nearly 2 years and has 150 memebers.

And there's the point of all this - I'd probably have added the word 'only (150 members). Peolple 'pop in', find a 'general' forum with nothing of specific interest to them at that partiular time, and so don't put the site high on their 'surf' list.

As for a members only area, that really needs more thought than I have given it. What goes into such an area? I know of two sites that have such an area (and Chris - you manage one of them!) - and the members only area, apart from specific details about members over and above their email address, contains information relevant and of interest only to members: for example competitions open only to the organisation's membership. IAC competitions are open to all (amateur/non-commercial) film-makers, so that part wouldn't be relevant. What would be of interest only to IAC members?

I think the answer may well be, in the final analysis, that only member details would be relevant for a members only area - and in my view, that wouldn't warrant the trouble of setting it up. Especially as people could/should/would be able to 'opt out' of being on the list.

[Michael Slowe]

As an old IAC member (as long as Michael Gough!) I have read this thread with interest. The suggestion of funding it with advertisements is a good one and the ingenious idea of shielding members from them even better.

The splitting up into different categories is not good because it would take too long switching from one to the other, why not keep it all on one forum but ask posters to be very concise with their heading and we would then be able to instantly select knowing the subject, not always the case currently. Certainly the tecnical forum should be combined with this one. I once tried to join the tech one but couldn't manage it and anyway I get quite enough E Mails thank you every day, I'd much rather access a forum as and when I want. Technical matters aired on a forum such as this is essential for the IAC in my opinion. At the moment I rely on the professional Creative Cow forums for intelligent and expert technical discussion.

'Fraught', it's all very well posting films to U Tube if they run for five minutes but are you suggesting that this is the way to exhibit say something running for twenty five minutes? Surely the best way to show our films is at Festivals and 'Events'? This is where membership of the IAC comes in. There are regional and national festivals but how many of our corresponders enter films for these? I recognise a few names from festivals but not many.

Finally, I dislike the 'us & them' tone that has run through this thread, it is totally unecessary. We are all members together, us and Council and as has been suggested if you don't like what you see you can put yourself forward for election to office. They do know what's being said as evidenced by Gough's intervention and attendance at festivals and events by everyone (join first!!) would certainly help.