Music and Movement

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
Dave Watterson

Music and Movement

Post by Dave Watterson » Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:37 pm

Sometimes people complain about copyright fees for using music in their films
and videos. In one sense you can understand that. After all we rarely have
to pay for the images we shoot, though as the Metropolitan Police copyright
police box designs and New York seeks to copyright the Manhattan skyline
that may change!

But many movies are "made" by the choice of music. We take the work of composers
and musicians who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art ...

Some of you make movies inspired by pieces of music, one composes his own
and most of us borrow from the works of others to enhance our art. Why don't
more of us get together with musicians to create original tracks?

McDave (Tarradiddle) Watterson

PS For non-UK readers the subject line refers to a broadcast radio exercise
programme intended for pre-school and infant children.

Brian Hazelden

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Brian Hazelden » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:54 am

"Dave Watterson" <webmaster@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
Why don't
more of us get together with musicians to create original tracks?
On November 9th I'm getting together with a few video making chums to film
a music group called Mbawula. It's quite a big group - 3 saxes, 2 trumpets,
2 trombones, keyboards, guitar, bass, drums, percussion, 3 male and 1 female
vocalist, and they're hot.

Check out www.mbawula.com

I know this is not what you meant, I just wanted to tell you.

Brian Hazelden

Michael Slowe

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Michael Slowe » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:05 pm

"Brian Hazelden" <brian_hazelden@lineone.net> wrote:
"Dave Watterson" <webmaster@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
Why don't
more of us get together with musicians to create original tracks?

On November 9th I'm getting together with a few video making chums to film
a music group called Mbawula. It's quite a big group - 3
saxes, 2 trumpets,

Dave, you knew I would have something to say on this since music and movement
are "my thing" and whatever decent films I may have made over the last 30
years have depended on it. I would have no objection to paying copyright
fees for music I use - in fact I already do through the IAC Copyright Scheme.
But if I had to satisfy a further demand in special circumstances I would,
provided the charge was reasonable bearing in mind the limited circulation
of most of our films. I have always fought shy of using the "copyright free"
music on offer since I have to search worldwide for some of the music I need
as it is and have a difficult job in matching action and music exactly as
I want. It is a problem becoming ever more urgent these days and the IAC
are doing a great job and I believe are about to unveil alterations to their
scheme.
2 trombones, keyboards, guitar, bass, drums, percussion, 3 male and 1 female
vocalist, and they're hot.

Check out www.mbawula.com

I know this is not what you meant, I just wanted to tell you.

Brian Hazelden

Ned Cordery

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Ned Cordery » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:59 pm

"Dave Watterson" <webmaster@theiac.org.uk> wrote:

Some of you make movies inspired by pieces of music, one composes his own
and most of us borrow from the works of others to enhance our art. Why
don't
more of us get together with musicians to create original tracks?

McDave (Tarradiddle) Watterson
In my professional life in the UK I used MCPS licenced music and have now
discovered an interesting alternative, their site is worth a visit www.audiolicense.com
- you can sample some of their tracks. I work with a composer but composing
is not easy and is time consuming so I don't press too much, he composes
for "fun" productions. However, composers have a recognisable style and this
is not necessarily suited to all productions so we need to be able to work
across a wide slection of music as possible. The IAC arrangement is truly
outstanding and I am not aware of any equivalent here in the USA for the
amateur. Interestingly, wedding videographers here don't give a damn about
copyright and will use any pop tunes their clients like as backing!

Ned Cordery

Dave Watterson

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Dave Watterson » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:46 pm

The whole music copyright issue is tricky. In UK the rules say do not identify
in the credit specific recordings used ... I believe that in Australia it
is the opposite.

In many places around the world amateurs and small-scale professionals simply
disregard copyright.

Morally I have a few qualms ... but realise only too well that the cash we
pay goes mainly to the record companies and very little reaches the artists
who wrote or performed the music. At least the IAC scheme lets us contribute
a little to the pockets of the rights holders and keeps us on the correct
side of the law.

Brian makes a good point about the likely circulation and usage of most amateur
movies. The current issue of Empire magazine lists typical fees for using
pop music in commercial features and they range from 50,000 pounds to half
a million. (On a comparative count of bums on seats I reckon most amateurs
should pay about 10 pence in that case !!!)

I had not thought about the points Ned makes: your friendly composer's natural
style may not always be appropriate and it does add considerably to the time
required to complete a movie.

What do you make of the "logic" that made it cheaper for the TV company making
the "Inspector Morse" series to hire an orchestra and make special recordings
of classical pieces than to use pieces from commercial CDs? Mind you Morse
also enjoyed the musical support of Barrington Phelounge whose work seems
to me to blend superbly into the Morse ethos.

As to Uncle Albert - he makes jazz all by himself.

Dave McMusing

Brian Hazelden

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Brian Hazelden » Thu Oct 31, 2002 11:07 pm

"Dave Watterson" <webmaster@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
What do you make of the "logic" that made it cheaper for the TV company
making
the "Inspector Morse" series to hire an orchestra and make special recordings
of classical pieces than to use pieces from commercial CDs?
I believe it was also cheaper for the jeans adverts, (or was it chewing gum?)
to get Free to re-record "All Right Now", among others.

That surely points to the greed of the record companies.

Mind you, that's nothing compared to the unexplained premature deaths of
a number of leading rock musicians shortly after setting up their own record
labels ......... and then there's the disco disgrace where real stars were
never required ....... and then punk as an antidote, all manipulations by
the record companies.

Anyone want to make a movie about a massive conspiracy?

Brian Hazelden

AN

Re: Music and Movement

Post by AN » Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:09 am

"Dave Watterson" <webmaster@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
What do you make of the "logic" that made it cheaper for the TV company
making
the "Inspector Morse" series to hire an orchestra and make special recordings
of classical pieces than to use pieces from commercial CDs? Mind you Morse
also enjoyed the musical support of Barrington Phelounge whose work seems
to me to blend superbly into the Morse ethos.
Yes Dave, where would Morse be without the Morse code, coded music?
If the price of commercial CDs made the Morse producers get the services
of Phelounge then may commercial prices go even higher!
It is the character of the specially commisioned music that helps make these
series memorable. David Suchet's Agatha Christie series had wonderful music,
again specially written.
Dad's Army theme specially written by Jimmy Perry is another older example.
As to Uncle Albert - he makes jazz all by himself.
I have always advocated local film makers getting in contact with local music
groups with a view to recording a fresh, live, copyright free sound track.
Many of us know a decent pianist
in the family/friends who can be coaxed into tickling the ivories for us...I
have done this on two occasions in the past.

Also, with software now available at reasonable prices, it is now possible
to have one's own symphony orchestra right in the living room. One doesn't
have to read music either in order to be able to compose. Software allows
'piano roll' entry of notes so any musically illiterate film maker can try
a 'Pheloung!' remember that he ability to think up a good theme is not directly
related to being able to read music, nor to being able to play an instrument.
It really is good fun, (altho somewhat time consuming!)

Albert...remembering FACE and EGBDF !!

Ned Cordery

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Ned Cordery » Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:46 pm

"Brian Hazelden" <brian_hazelden@lineone.net> wrote:
of the record companies.
Mind you, that's nothing compared to the unexplained premature deaths of
a number of leading rock musicians shortly after setting up their own record
labels ......... and then there's the disco disgrace where real stars were
never required ....... and then punk as an antidote, all manipulations by
the record companies.

Anyone want to make a movie about a massive conspiracy?

Brian Hazelden
The greed of the record companies is legendary and given the comments regarding
the sudden death of artists who go their own way a documentary exposing the
rot may not be good for one's health.

AN's suggestion that you play your own is OK but remember you may get round
the performing rights but if it is less than 70 years since the composer
died then there are the composers rights to consider! There is also the strange
business of extending rights - did you know that the poems of John Clare,
an Englishman who died in 1864, are claimed to be copyrighted by an American
academic.

The entire field of intellectual rights is a nightmare,

Ned Cordery

Ned Cordery

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Ned Cordery » Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:12 pm

"AN" <AnimatioN@btopenworld.com> wrote:
Also, with software now available at reasonable prices, it is now possible
to have one's own symphony orchestra right in the living room. One doesn't
have to read music either in order to be able to compose. Software allows
'piano roll' entry of notes so any musically illiterate film maker can try
a 'Pheloung!' remember that he ability to think up a good theme is not
directly
related to being able to read music, nor to being able to play an instrument.
It really is good fun, (altho somewhat time consuming!)

Albert...remembering FACE and EGBDF !!
If you listen carefully to the sound tracks of many contemporary films they
us "sound washes" rather than musical creations. These can be created to
match the mood of the film and AN's suggestions work well for these.

Just an afterthought as I get lost in the wash (sorry AN)

Ned Cordery

AN

Re: Music and Movement

Post by AN » Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:48 pm

"Ned Cordery" <goslands@infowest.com> wrote:
If you listen carefully to the sound tracks of many contemporary films they
us "sound washes" rather than musical creations. These can be created to
match the mood of the film
We all worry about lighting/editing/scripts etc etc, but so little attention
is given to creating a music/film whole.
Many just 'slap' some music onto the film that about matches the mood. "Humour/fear/creepy/outdoors.
The pros use music very creatively, so why shouldn't the amatuer do likewise.


As I've mentioned before it's high time that awards were given in the amatuer
film world for the creative use of music, just as is done with the pros.
Instead of thinking up scripts and then
'plonking' some music on after, why not find a nice piece of music and THEN
write a script around the sounds/chords etc? Then
the music will uplift one's film and be an integrated part of it, instead
of a piece of musical wallpaper!
Just an afterthought as I get lost in the wash (sorry AN)
Is that because you used to live in Norfolk, Ned?...!!
Albert.....winding up the music box.

ALECK

Re: Music and Movement

Post by ALECK » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:49 am

"AN" <Animation@btopenworld.com> wrote:
"Ned Cordery" <goslands@infowest.com> wrote:
If you listen carefully to the sound tracks of many contemporary films
they
us "sound washes" rather than musical creations. These can be created to
match the mood of the film

We all worry about lighting/editing/scripts etc etc, but so little attention
is given to creating a music/film whole.
Many just 'slap' some music onto the film that about matches the mood.
"Humour/fear/creepy/outdoors.
The pros use music very creatively, so why shouldn't the amatuer do likewise.


As I've mentioned before it's high time that awards were given in the amatuer
film world for the creative use of music, just as is done with the pros.
Instead of thinking up scripts and then
'plonking' some music on after, why not find a nice piece of music and THEN
write a script around the sounds/chords etc? Then
the music will uplift one's film and be an integrated part of it, instead
of a piece of musical wallpaper!

Just an afterthought as I get lost in the wash (sorry AN)
Is that because you used to live in Norfolk, Ned?...!!

Albert.....winding up the music box.

Agree about the need for more creative music
Withe programs like Sound forge and Cool edit as well as the various 'Synth'
and 'Sampling' programs anything is possible.
Some musicians have made recordings including 'bites' sampled from other
records!
We have the usual 'Movie to a single piece of music' comps.
How about 'Music and a movie' comp where the creative making and editing
of the sound track carried equal weight to the visual content?

Aleck

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Aleck » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:54 am

Sorry, I put my post at the bottom, Now copied here.

I Agree about the need for more creative music
Withe programs like Sound forge and Cool edit as well as the various 'Synth'
and 'Sampling' programs anything is possible.
Some musicians have made recordings including 'bites' sampled from other
records!
We have the usual 'Movie to a single piece of music' comps.
How about 'Music and a movie' comp where the creative making and editing
of the sound track carried equal weight to the visual content?


"ALECK" <aleck.s@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"AN" <Animation@btopenworld.com> wrote:

"Ned Cordery" <goslands@infowest.com> wrote:
If you listen carefully to the sound tracks of many contemporary films
they
us "sound washes" rather than musical creations. These can be created
to
match the mood of the film

We all worry about lighting/editing/scripts etc etc, but so little attention
is given to creating a music/film whole.
Many just 'slap' some music onto the film that about matches the mood.

"Humour/fear/creepy/outdoors.
The pros use music very creatively, so why shouldn't the amatuer do likewise.


As I've mentioned before it's high time that awards were given in the amatuer
film world for the creative use of music, just as is done with the pros.
Instead of thinking up scripts and then
'plonking' some music on after, why not find a nice piece of music and
THEN
write a script around the sounds/chords etc? Then
the music will uplift one's film and be an integrated part of it, instead
of a piece of musical wallpaper!

Just an afterthought as I get lost in the wash (sorry AN)
Is that because you used to live in Norfolk, Ned?...!!

Albert.....winding up the music box.

Agree about the need for more creative music
Withe programs like Sound forge and Cool edit as well as the various 'Synth'
and 'Sampling' programs anything is possible.
Some musicians have made recordings including 'bites' sampled from other
records!
We have the usual 'Movie to a single piece of music' comps.
How about 'Music and a movie' comp where the creative making and editing
of the sound track carried equal weight to the visual content?

Dave Watterson

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Dave Watterson » Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:33 pm

[I have a simple way of avoiding the "top or bottom" posting issue ... I just
delete all, or most of, the preceding message before adding my twopennyworth.
That avoids all those >>> signs.]

Good idea, Aleck. How about it some of you go-ahead IAC clubs and Regions?
If anyone is doing - or plans to do such a comp, please let us know on this
forum.

Would we need a musically qualified judge - or because our aim is making
better movies, do we still depend on those who can judge movies? I have
in mind the fact that film music seldom stands on its own as a piece of music
without considerable reworking into "The Suite from ..." A traditional music
judge might find it hard to assess.

Dave

Michael Slowe

Re: Music and Movement

Post by Michael Slowe » Sun Nov 03, 2002 11:29 am

I totally agree with AN & Ned's comments about the use of music in amateur
films but myself claim exemption from the accusation of using it as "wallpaper".
I never, ever, just lay music for the sake of it but scour the world if
necessary for the right sound to match my visuals. I have a film about to
appear where there are up to eight tracks of music laid over each other and
blended together . In fact asked to identify them by a foreign film festival
for copyright purposes I had the devil's own job - and I laid the tracks!
Of course modern editing programmes allow all this experimentation whereas
previosly one might have been sitting in a dubbing studio paying God knows
what per hour. Music should be regarded as sound FX and integrated into the
film. It is a "hobby horse" of mine, sorry to go on so! By the way they
do often give prizes for the use of music, I have been lucky enough to have
received them, and they call it "the use of sound".

AN

Re: Music and Movement

Post by AN » Sun Nov 03, 2002 6:33 pm

"Michael Slowe" <michael.slowe@btinternet.com> wrote:
I totally agree with AN & Ned's comments about the use of music in amateur
films but myself claim exemption from the accusation of using it as "wallpaper".
I don't believe that any of us on this group are very keen on 'wallpering!
But have this day just returned from the CEMRIAC Autumn Festival and I have
heard wallpering going most of the day alas. The one
small but impressive exception was Geof Caldwell's 60 sec film, "Watch the
Birdie" in which he accurately cut the antics of a garden blackbird (frame
by frame!!) to an appropriate piece of music...you will all be hearing further
about this film, of that I am sure.
I never, ever, just lay music for the sake of it but scour the world if
necessary for the right sound to match my visuals.
Good, for that is as it should be...film making makes one wrench one's soul
apart, spend months/years searching/cutting/doubting/experimenting...Oh what
a torturous web we weave. :-)

After today's CEMRIAC viewing there is no doubt in my mind (if there was
ever any!) that most UKers owning a cam corder do not wish to say anything
except show shaggy dog stories or insist on placing their hammy actors before
us for all to see, for an excessive time, with loud innapropriate music slapped
onto the sound track for good measure. :-(

I said to someone (and he agreed) that in many cases one could swop the music
tracks from film to film and it would make little difference to the overall
results!
By the way they
do often give prizes for the use of music, I have been lucky enough to have
received them, and they call it "the use of >sound".
Yes, but I was alluding to awards for musical *composition* in amatuer films,
specially commisioned/written for that particular film.

Albert....stripping down the wallpaper!!

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