Optimum Length! Is Longer Better?

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
Greg Fester
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Optimum Length! Is Longer Better?

Post by Greg Fester »

I am a member of a Camcorder Club whose main mindset appears to be travelogue films.

Dont get me wrong, some of the presentations are excellent but watching a show of 10 films, 8 of which are extolling the virtues of a particular part of the world, can be a bit wearing..no matter how good.

For a number of years I have been constantly bucking the trend by producing short comedies which while getting a lot of laughs and much interest fall into the silver and bronze positions at best.

Many of our visiting clubs show much more diversity and are warmly applauded by all members, which in some small part gives some hope of redemption for my approach.

This coming season sees an entirely new committee which hopefully will encourage newer members and more diverse ideas.

Having the eternal problem of lack of funds and actors, I have always been limited to 2 or 3 characters.

After months of waiting I have recruited 3 other members of the club to crew a shoot with members of an Amateur Dramatic Society to shoot a melodrama written by me.

My worry is what the actual finished length of the film should be to get the optimum interest.

Initially I wrote it for a 10 minute slot but quickly realized the time scale would not be conducive to the content as it would not allow the play to flow as it should. That said I proofed the script over and over again, and everyone agrees that the added few minutes appears to have improved the story.

Problem is the criteria for amateur film shows seems to be set lengths of 5 or 10 minutes and for the sake of the cast and crew I would not want to be left with a pig.

Does anyone have any contacts for shows that do not have time limit criteria for amateur films? Any advice except shorting the script would be welcome.
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Roy

As posted

Post by Roy »

I agree with your sentiments entirely. I belonged to a club which once produced films long enough for the characters of fiction films to get established. The club even had a fiction comp.alas no longer. It too seems to concentrate on very short films and runs a 1min film comp and a 5 min comp and a film to a record comp which attracts more entries than the established Holiday, Documentary and open comps. All local clubs seem to be the same and visiting judges( we're back to them again) seem to think it's their duty to declare serious over ten minute films to be to long, no matter how interesting the audiance might find them. If you are only going to be allowed ten minutes before being told it's to long, you may as well put your work on Youtube, Metacafe and Yahoo and get an audiance of Thousands instead of a handful in a club room. I don't think the major National competitions restrict you to ten minutes. Even at my old club you can still enter any length of video, apart from the time restricted ones, but you still get told it's to long by judges. I did suggest that the club have special nights for members to show work that they did not want to put in to comps,and fair play, they did that and I believe the night was quite successful. Roy
Greg Fester
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Optimum Length.

Post by Greg Fester »

Thank You Roy.

It appears that `short is better' is a national trend. Perhaps todays audiences do not have the attention span we used to have.

My film may be in the blockbuster mode in amateur terms then? :wink:
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ned c
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Post by ned c »

The criterion of success of a film is its ability to hold the audience's attention and this is determined by content rather than length. The problem for amateur narrative films is that often the script is not fully developed and the actors are not convincing. So, spend lots of time working on the script and make it so that it does not place heavy demands on the actors, unless you have access to experienced film actors.

The winning narrative film in last year's AMPS Fest ran 25 minutes and held the audience's attention for the full time. The writer/director had spent a LOT of time in preparation.

ned c
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Dave Watterson
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Post by Dave Watterson »

In the IAC Festival the average length of entry is just under 12 minutes.

On the main website
http://www.theiac.org.uk/events/forthco ... ivals.html
has a listing of major competitions by the maximum length they accept. Notice that the Phase 4 Fiction Film competition organised by Ken Wilson for British amateur fiction movies allows entries up to 20 minutes.

So if your film is any good you can get it considered by a range of competitions and festivals.

The reasons many in-club competitions set short limits are:

1) it is very hard to make an interesting film more than 10 minutes long
2) they want to be able to screen all the entries within the time-frame of a normal club evening.

I join the general opinion in this thread and say "go for it!"

Make the best damn film you can. (Ask all the performers to sign a simple note saying you can enter the finished film in competitions and/or put it on a website.)

If you cannot get it in a club competition ... ask if you could have a "workshop" evening built round it where constructive criticism would be welcomed. Bite your tongue during that session, listen, make positive noises and keep notes. You may be surprised where the best comments come from. The club secretary might well welcome something different for the schedule.

Then have a go at some festivals etc.

Dave
Greg Fester
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Post by Greg Fester »

Your advice about holding the audiences attention throughout the film is an echo of my own thoughts Ned.
I have endeavoured not to waste precious film time within my script by ensuring that the story unfolds during each scene without the ending becoming obvious until the final act.

Luckily the director has also allowed my to express my own interpretations of each of the characters to the actors. He said ` I can only direct the actors if I know myself what you were thinking when you wrote the play’. That was a great start.

I am relieved that there may be a prospective place for the film in some competitions should we consider it viable and worthy at the end of the shoot.

I was always worried that we would be left on a shelf due to length criteria.

Your information has been very encouraging and most welcome.

Thank You
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Graeme Webb

Post by Graeme Webb »

Having the eternal problem of lack of funds and actors, I have always been limited to 2 or 3 characters.

After months of waiting I have recruited 3 other members of the club to crew a shoot with members of an Amateur Dramatic Society to shoot a melodrama written by me.

<Slightly off topic>

And we all suffer from having no budgets.

I have found that using AmDram actors brings its own problems as the disciplines for acting on a stage are different from those required for acting in a film. The acting is one of the main area's that lets down small zero budget film makers.

You may want to check out these 2 links:

http://www.talentcircle.org/

http://shootingpeople.org/account/auth.php

These are online film production networking and social sites. You will find many actors there who in some cases are highly experienced in film making willing to work on your project for expenses like train fares and a cheese roll for lunch. A recent ad we placed resulted in 43 offers for a voice over role. You will find all manner of other production people to help for the same expenses only setup. You may even find that you can offer your expertise and work with other independent film makers on an interesting project.

Graeme
Pqtrick
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SHORT FILMS?

Post by Pqtrick »

Having made a drama film before I left the UK using actors from a local dramatic society; the only advice I would give, is to go ahead and do it and essentially enjoy it. The duration really is immaterial. You should clearly have a good idea of what you want to get over and when that is achieved that's it. If you stimulate some interest in it, people will want to see it. You'll really get more enjoyment out of making it. Competitions are more of a bye product. There is a fiction film competition held in UK around October each year and the details are somewhere on the IAC web page.
Most people watch television, I don't know about judges. Here in France the average length of an evenings programme either drama, documentary or live, yes they do live telly in France and light entertainment as well, ugh! I hear distant mutterings. In comparison television back in the UK contrasts this with their own ideas of what the audience needs. The point is who is to say what is right? I have seen films in a Court Metrage (short films) Festival here, some were almost half an hour long! Measure your piece of string when you are finished, that's the length of your film. Happy shooting!.
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Dave Watterson
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Post by Dave Watterson »

Maybe part of the attraction for am-dram actors in a film project could be having a chance to LEARN film technique. Tape is cheap, though time can be a problem. But it may be worth planning time to try some key scenes then on another night playing them back - probably repeatedly - in a workshop session.

Actors rarely get to know what their performances look like. Performing to a mirror is not much good. If you present it as a workshop notion rather than traditional director's "notes" or criticism they will soon see for themselves how they need to "dial back" their performances for the lens.

Some actors have told me they almost restrict themselves to "thinking" the role, relying on tiny facial changes being caught on camera. Many directors have told me concentrate on the eyes - go into big close-up. Even if the actor is just thinking what to have for tea that night, the audience will read into their eyes all sorts of emotions!

Dave
Michael Slowe
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Optimum Length, is longer better?

Post by Michael Slowe »

Greg, any judge who says 15 minutes is too long before seeing a film has no right being a judge. The quality of the film should be the only yardstick. If it works and is entertaining and interesting the length is completely irrelevant. I have had films of 29 minutes win major competitions and ones of 4 minutes fail utterly. Make your own film. Obviously you should try to be economical because the film will succeed if it does not outlive its welcome. It's all a matter of arriving at a pace and structure that works, not an easy thing to achieve but certainly not done by deciding on a predetermined time limit.
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Dave Watterson
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Post by Dave Watterson »

I re-read this thread and realised that Greg was originally talking about competitions organised within a club or perhaps between a couple of clubs. While many of us have been talking about national and international festivals.

At club level things can be much more restrictive ... and judging can be even more variable than at major festivals!

But the gist of our comments have, I think, been right. Don't accept arbitrary limits - go for what feels right to you as the creative force behind the project. If you win a gold medal somewhere, I bet the club will find time to show the film!

Dave
Roy

Post by Roy »

Dave Watterson wrote:In the IAC Festival the average length of entry is just under 12 minutes.


The reasons many in-club competitions set short limits are:

1) it is very hard to make an interesting film more than 10 minutes long
2) they want to be able to screen all the entries within the time-frame of a normal club evening.
I must argue the toss with you regarding your first statement., WHY IS IT HARD TO MAKE AN INTERESTING FILM LASTING MORE THAN TEN MINUTES. I've seen a lot of rubbish films running well under ten minutes. You may as well say that a lot of people find it hard to make an interesting video or film lasting more than five minutes. With regard to your second statement, you are probally right, but I remember when most films entered in club competitions were on average 15 to 20 mins long and there were many entries but we always managed to show them. Sometimes the competition stretched to two nights.
Regarding the post about time limits, voluntary or otherwise, I made a a 14 mins holiday film and put it in a competition It was well received by the audiance, The judges obviouly liked it And commented that it was a good film and told the young people present that it was the way Holiday films are made. However They still said it was to long. No other critism was made and they never said why it was to long. Roy
Brian Saberton
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Post by Brian Saberton »

My personal rule of thumb is that a film should be just long enough to tell the story. In terms of fiction I think it all comes down to making sure that the script is fully developed before filming starts. If you have an interesting, well written story with good characters, crisp dialogue and a sense of pace and narrative drive the audience will become so involved in the film that they won't notice the passage of time. Have a look at Jan Bacca's "How to write Love Letters", a superb and engaging drama that is relatively long (I can't remember the exact running time) but is so involving that the time seems to go by very quickly indeed. On the other hand I've seen much shorter films that have been loosely edited or contain unecessary "padding" that felt longer than they actually were.

I've been working on a script recently with two friends and after considerable discussion and various re-writes and adjustments it has fallen quite naturally into a potential running time of about 15 minutes. We feel that we don't need to add anything more to tell the story and have eliminated any unecessary material that doesn't advance the plot or reveal important information about the characters.
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FILM THURSO
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Post by FILM THURSO »

The general rule of theatre is that one side of A4 is one minute on stage. In film I find 26shots fill one side of A4 and also represent about the same. I'm a bit lost as to worrying about a film going over 10 minutes. The short films I made were simply written and then filmed. In editing they seem to naturally find their length.
Pace is important and I find the best thing is to be brutal with the cutting, i.e. if it's in the film just cause it's a lovely shot then cut it out completey.

yokes got to go to work... I'll come back to this :shock:

right back again...


A normal movie, say a feature length film is made up of a number of scenes on average about 20. Each scene has a start, middle and end and might be presnted in 2 parts, e.g. suspence seen cutting back to a lighter hearted scene before picking up on the suspence scene so as to make it more exciting.
Whatever way the film is cut is is still a series of scenes which can readily be separated from the film and with a couple of open and close titles added, can make a nice little short film.
Each scene in a film is normally in the area of about 3 minutes and this applies even to short films.
So if a judge says that you could have made 3 films out of it, he/she might be right- BUT THEY ARE MISSING THE POINT. Any movie can be made into shoter films. If a judge comes out with it, then they don't understand the structure of film.
I don't get this whole thing about making films to satisfy judges. The only real judge a film should have is an audience and if you're audience are starting to yawn at any point they either need fresh air r you've cut your film wrong and it's losing pace and interest. Test screenings to a small audience (NOT to friends and family) will help iron out any problems as you can directly ask for feedback. My one peice of advice here is don't let the audience change your story, let them guide you where cutting to sustain interest and pace are concerned. You should always tell the story you intended for the audience. You only need to modify the way it's presented to get the audience to like it.
Alternatively you could get the audience to hate it on purpose and because folk love to complain you could create a huge controversy and have a hit cult movie on your hands. Well Done! :D
Last edited by FILM THURSO on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Willy
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Re: Optimum Length, is longer better?

Post by Willy »

Michael Slowe wrote:Greg, any judge who says 15 minutes is too long before seeing a film has no right being a judge.
t.
Always too long !
I was sure that you would give your opinion about length of films, Michael. You already did it some years ago. Of course, I agree with you because also my films are usually longer than the ones made by other friends. I am sure that in Belgium judges already start writing the following sentences in their reports before having seen the film : "Film is too long. You could have made 2 or 3 films about it". Stupid, isn't it ? Indeed, also these judges have no right being a judge.

52 minutes
Now I have just finished a film with a length of 52 minutes. Once it was even 72 minutes long. I made this one for my friend Freddy who is the president of the "Genootschap Passchendale Society 1917". It's a group of volunteers that do their utmost to honour all the soldiers who died in Flanders Fields. New Zealanders, Australians, Canadians and other people from nations at the other end of the world do not have the time and possibily to pay tribute to those thousands of young men who perished for their country. So we must do it for them, Freddy always says." Yesterday he saw my very long film. "Immaculate ! Excellent !", he said. The film will be screened for his volunteers in some weeks.

BoringOh, no, this is not a good film for a competition. A wide audience may find it boring. My friend Rony is an exception. He also received a copy. He's a teacher of history, just like me. Me too, I am allowed to teach English (elementary and intermediate), Dutch and history. Rony seemed to be elated by my film.

Audience and judges with cultural background
For certain films the audience must have a cultural background. And not only the auidence ... also the judges ! If you would like to become a judge in Belgium, you must take a course now. I am not for it. I know someone who is not interested in arts and history at all, but he would like to be a judge. You can often see him caarying a briefcase. Maybe his IQ is in his briefcase.

25 minutes
Anyway the following weeks I will try to halve my film. Maybe a version of 25 minutes will be acceptable for a wide audience, even for people with a poor cultural background.
Willy Van der Linden
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