Competition Entries Reluctance to Accept HDV

edin · Post by **edin** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:17 pm

There has been much debate at club level about moving over to HD and the cost inpact this will have on the individual club members and the club itself.
While high definition video is making a permanent place for itself, SD format (standard definition) isn’t dead and far from it. The mini-DV cassette is still good and offers excellent image quality with the main advantages of easy editing and automatic archiving.
While high definition video appears very promising, there are some obstacles, notably with AVCHD, which only some software can recognize. Luckily, it’s still possible to record or export videos in SD or HD for more versatility.
The difference between the two formats is obvious with an impressive level of detail for the latter. However HD requires another level of investment in equipment to record, edit, output and display a HD video.
Is the investment to HD worthwhile on a personal and club level to take advantage of the new format or is SD still the workhorse of the amateur video making community?

ned c · Post by **ned c** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:50 pm

A very difficult question to answer, however, I think there is some mileage in SD DV and it will continue to be around in the amateur world for three or four years more.

But as HD equipment costs go down, more TV programs are transmitted in HD, more people have HD TVs and view BluRay DVDs then the support for any SD format will decline and as it does so the SD equipment and support will disappear. How much Hi8/SVHS is out there now? How many video renters carry VHS tapes?

Video formats come and go, this too will pass! We have to view the acquisition/editing/delivery systems for video as just the means of telling our stories, not ends in themselves. This is why film will be around for years in the industry as the various competing HD video systems are replaced/upgraded and increasingly incompatible.

Is there an opportunity here for video clubs? If a club purchased the equipment, camera and edit station for HD and made them available to members this would make much more sense than everyone buying their own equipment.

ned c

Post by **Dave Watterson** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:16 pm

Is there an opportunity here for video clubs? If a club purchased the equipment, camera and edit station for HD and made them available to members this would make much more sense than everyone buying their own equipment.

Ned makes good sense as usual.

My concern is that "HD" is not yet applied to a single standard. Apart from the usual PAL versus NTSC issue there are various different sizes quoted and the matter of whether the picture is interlaced or not.

Some kit does one thing, some another!

Dave

edin · Post by **edin** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:17 pm

Is the investment to HD worthwhile on a personal and club level to take advantage of the new format or is SD still the workhorse of the amateur video making community?

Putting the question another way. How are the national and international video competition going to deal with HD entries? what will be the format for video submissions? This will effect all clubs and club members who may want to progress from SD to HD! Is this a factor that is causing some resistance in clubs to move from SD to HD, apart from cost.

ned c · Post by **ned c** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:11 am

Speaking on behalf of AMPS this is how we see things:

This year's entries SD NTSC and PAL on DVD or miniDV tape, 4:3 and 16:9.

Next year; as above PLUS Blu-Ray and HDV on mini tape, 1080 60i and 1080 50i.

Last year we accepted entries on HDV mini tape but there were no entries received in this format so we have dropped it for this year.

But, you can see the problem for Festival organisers as the formats and standards multiply. Film makers want their work to be seen in the best possible format but for the organisers the simple solution would to be to accept SD on DVDs only, however the future lies elsewhere so we have to prepare for it.

ned c

edin · Post by **edin** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:11 am

But, you can see the problem for Festival organisers as the formats and standards multiply. Film makers want their work to be seen in the best possible format but for the organisers the simple solution would to be to accept SD on DVDs only, however the future lies elsewhere so we have to prepare for it.

It appears from a review of the entry conditions that the majority of local, national and international film and video competitions have still to make a decision on whether to accept HDV entries. AMPS seems to be very progressive in opening up its entries to the HDV format for the 2009 season.

The simple solution to accept SD on either Mini DV or DVD seems to be the current standard. There seems to be a reluctance by the Festival organisers and clubs to adopt the HDV format. This may be due to a mixture of cost and format issues. The HDV format seems to be resolved to Blu-Ray disks and the equipment costs continue to come down.

Is it not time that the HDV format is at least made eligable for the main film and video festivals in 2009!

Peter Rouillard · Post by **Peter Rouillard** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:51 am

As there are a few concerns about HDV acceptances in amateur festivals I thought it time to make my first post here to ensure everyone that our Guernsey Lily Festival can, as from now, accept HD entries on DV and Mini DV tape in readiness for the 2009 festival.
I am now assuming that Blu-Ray will be the most accepted format for HD DVD's, and therefore we will also be in a position to accept these next year, should that be the case.
This year's festival in October will, of course, be as normal, with all the showings compiled on DV tape.
I personally have no desire,as yet, to change to HD as I am perfectly happy with DV quality, having seen hundreds of examples projected on very large screens. However, film festivals have to move on and due to a very generous donation from our latest sponsor Spearpoint Ltd, we have chosen to invest in HDV for the future.
We are looking forward to seeing our many friends and visitors to the 'Lily' in October.

Peter Rouillard

FILM THURSO · Post by **FILM THURSO** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:39 pm

Perhaps the problem is the cost of ugrading systems. The industry is going HD but not everyone can afford to follow so imediately including competitions and festivals. Film-Thurso will be on bog standard for a good bit to come but hey, it still looks good on a 30ft CinemaScope screen!

Chrisbitz · Post by **Chrisbitz** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:16 pm

I don't mean to be *just* controversial, but the huge emphasis on HD still bugs me.

It bugs me in the same way that someone with lots of money, will go out and buy the most expensive kit, and then dance around acting like the best film-maker in the world, just beccause they have all this fancy kit.

Fancy kit, big cameras, HD, make no difference to the quality of your film. If you, as the director producer make a pile of steaming rubbish, then filming it with the best camera in the world isn't going to make it any better.

If your film is genuinely good, then everyone will consider it excellent whether it's projected in DV, HDV or even VHS!

People who throw their toys out of the pram because "I made it in dolby surround and you projected it in stereo" (to quote one) or because they wanted their masterpiece in HD are just missing the point.

I don't mean to wind anyone up with this, but I find all the HD fuss just puts off people without big budgets.

I've had an HD camera for a couple of years now, and still haven't produced anything in HD, as it just makes edit-time slower and less pleasurable.

Of course there are exceptions to what I've said above but as a general rule, I feel it's right.

FILM THURSO · Post by **FILM THURSO** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm

As we always say at Film-Thurso- the screenplay will dictate how the film should be made and seen. High resolution isn't everything. Following the above, if your movie is crap HD won't make the blindest bit of difference to the audience.

ned c · Post by **ned c** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:57 pm

There is no "huge emphasis on HD". It is here, some people are using it some are not, but it is not going to go away. The only certainty is that SD DV will vanish, probably within the next 4 to 5 years, max. Where is Video8; VHSC, Hi8, SVHS, Digital 8 now? How do we view a Video8 movie now the camera is broken and lying in the corner?

I accept the point that film making is about creativity not equipment but the curse of the video world is the speed of obsolesence. In the immediate future are systems that create resolutions of 2K and even 4K for amateurs (see the Red camera; Scarlet).

Also recognise that many cameras, both still and video, are essentially male jewellery to be seen but seldom used.

All this raises an important point; the personal possession of a camera seems to be a central tenet of amateur film making. It should be the role of clubs to have technician members who shoot, edit, etc but even more important members who WRITE/DREAM/CREATE! Count the members of any club who do not possess a camera but devote their time to writing, directing, designing. Not many I suspect could this be one of the problems faced by clubs as they struggel for survival?

ned c.

Post by **Dave Watterson** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:08 pm

In the immediate future are systems that create resolutions of 2K and even 4K for amateurs (see the Red camera; Scarlet).

Just to save everyone else searching it out, you can find out about this at http://www.red.com/nab/scarlet but the main thing to note is that Red One is capable of recording at resolutions up to 4096 horizontal by 2304 vertical pixels ...

Dave

Peter Copestake · Post by **Peter Copestake** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:02 pm

Quote "How do we view a Video8 movie now the camera is broken and lying in the corner? "

Send it to me and with my pro Hi8 editing deck which plays video 8 I'll convert it to DVD in a similar way that I convert 9mm, standard 8, super 8 and 16mm film on ancient projectors. Look after your old equipment and it will have a use for years to come, BUT I cannot afford to upgrade to HD, my latest 'new' TV cost £100, so after this you are on your own! And when you cease to allow SD into your competitions I shall give up my membership.

Peter.

FILM THURSO · Post by **FILM THURSO** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:31 pm

Hey Film-Thurso does film transfer too. We specialise in Standard 8, Super 8mm (including Super 8-Xtra) 9.5mm, 16mm and 35mm movies. Film sound types enabled for optical on Super 8mm, 9.5mm and 35mm in mono or stereo. We can also pick up mag tracks in mono, stereo or quad. All surround decodable. We've even been known to do emergancy nitrate transfers pending condition of print inspected off-site. We can also do a certain amount to old sound recordings to bring them back to life.

Live life- Love movies!

edin · Post by **edin** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:24 pm

Is the investment to HD worthwhile on a personal and club level to take advantage of the new format or is SD still the workhorse of the amateur video making community?

We seem to have departed a long way from the above question and now seem to be getting posts in regard to how many different formats can be transfered to video!

We all need to be able to transfer and preserve archive footage, but we must also look forward to the future and enable access to the National and International competitions for new formats. If SD and HDV are allowed access to these competitions then there is no problem as the image quality on the large screen form both formats is good.

The other factors; script,acting, camerawork, props, editing etc that go to make a successful competition entry are more important than the video format to be used. Therefore it is not a question of SD vs HD, but of both formats co-existing for many years to come in competition entries.

This may be a good place to close this thread!!

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