WHAT IS ENTERTAINING? WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE?

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Dave Watterson
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WHAT IS ENTERTAINING? WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE?

Post by Dave Watterson »

In another thread the discussion got round to the fact that many cine club audiences expect a certain kind of standardised movie.

Billy from Consett said:
Guys, we need to give our audiences what they want to watch. I've learned that to my cost from my earlier film attempts.

At festivals like Biaff do what you like, but in our clubs we need to cater for the locals. We've also not got a wide screen.
Tom Hardwick responded:
You're right Billy - make your films to suit the client.
Ned Cordery pointed out:
As non-commercial film makers we don't actually have to please an audience; we just have to please ourselves. I believe this desire to please an audience is why so many "anglo-saxon" films are so unadventurous. Carefully designed to offend no-one and to please a board of judges made up of aging amateur film makers. Give me the stuff that is coming out of Eastern Europe and made by the young film makers. It seems that many n-c film makers feel comfortable with "amateurish" films. Yes, some films are made to appeal to an audience, often a specialized audience, but we should break free and have the guts to appeal to an audience of one!! Viva la revolution!
Film Thurso noted:
Clubs are often dominated by old-hands who are well past changing.
and
I say this so often- READ THE SCRIPT- it'll tell you how best to make the film and how it should be viewed. Each story has an intended destination both in the plot and the expected audience.
And this very evening I was on the phone with another experienced "old hand" whom you might have expected to be in the "safe entertainment" bracket but who was lamenting the fact that clubs prefer simple comedies. Any amateur who produced something like Schindler's List would not find his or her work appreciated in many clubs.

So ... let's take it from here ...

Dave
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billyfromConsett
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Re: WHAT IS ENTERTAINING? WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE?

Post by billyfromConsett »

Dave Watterson wrote: Any amateur who produced something like Schindler's List would not find his or her work appreciated in many clubs.

Dave
The clubs have 2 x 60minute slots. People start looking at their watches after maybe 10 minutes...
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Post by Dave Watterson »

I think he had in mind the subject matter of the film more than its running-time!

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Post by billyfromConsett »

It would be bi-unappreciated then.
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Willy
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Re: WHAT IS ENTERTAINING? WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE?

Post by Willy »

I don't find my own film "Breendonk", which is a documentary about a concentration camp, entertaining. On the contrary even. I only hope it is an interesting film.

Films for BIAFF and other festivals should not always be entertaining. However, I always hope to see as many entertaining filmls as possible. But I think it's wrong to consider entertainment as the most important criterium to evaluate a film. Of course that's my opinion and you don't have to share it.
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Post by ned c »

Real artists do art to please themselves and not an audience; there is no client just an urgent creative drive. The problem for film/video is that it is so expensive that raising money from sources other than Governments or Foundations results in an expectation of a financial or a propaganda return. This is commercial cinema and it tends to color all that n-c film makers make and their judges judge although in fact there is no financial imperative involved. Herein lies the great divide between the traditional/established amateur world and the world of modern independent film makers. *(Note: I do not mean Independent Film Makers a la Sundance, that is Hollywood being artsy and working for Scale). I am not opposed to a well made “My Hols in Benidorm” or “Steam Trains Vol 294”, but I really need to see something more adventurous.

Willy’s “Breendonk” is a success on two levels, the lesser success is the telling of historic events during the occupation of Belgium and telling them well; the major success is the relevance of the film to the world today and how easily people descend from misunderstanding to hatred and worse. As with many films the subtext is what really matters, here it is readily accessible and a clear reflection of many events taking place around us. It is a highly conventional film but one that is relevant to its time and resonates with echoes of Abu Gharib and “waterboarding” and the wonder of how “civilized” people can be party to these activities.

Obviously the n-c film making world reflects a broad spectrum of genres and approaches but there is little doubt that the English speaking n-c world seems reluctant to tackle the “big subjects” in small films. Where are the films on aging; political corruption; climate change; violence in the community; love; lust and the whole darn human thing? Not in the world of amateur film making as we see it.

ned c
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stingman
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Post by stingman »

In our club, it`s members exspect the `standard `affair! (as most of you know! I don`t fit into that mould very well as I like to be the first in the club to experiment and try something new.
Last night (in our Open Comp), I showed a short version of my daugthers Wedding Film (funny version). It was the first competition where 40% of the `Overall impression` is voted by it`s members on the night. While mine was being shown, I looked in the corner of my eye to see what people thought. After the first 3 minutes the smiles turned to boredoom. I looked at the scorecard of the man next to me and noticed he voted mine last!
I don`t mind as i`ve lost interest in the club a bit for various reasons. Also the film was a last minute one with only a few days to cut it down from 27 minutes to just 11ish. It was done in the `You`ve Been Framed` style but in my way of doing it. The first year this sort of film was `wow` (in the club), and got me first place, the second year, not so good. Now this style has had it in my club. I don`t know why, They are stuck in there ways, likeing to watch the standard film which would send anybody else to sleep, but when something new is down, they get bored.

Maybe next year, I`ll make some more films to blow them away. At the moment, i`m just filling in with the odd film with no big thought on it`s quality. Silly I know!

As to the types of film our club members make. It`s basicly all of them, then me as I don`t really fall into there mould.
They will make and show the odd film about a country shop, their latest holiday or a local Plouging match. All these films will be in the standard style with fades, cuts and basic transition. Basicly, they will film it and edit it in a normal style. The type of film I call boreing! A film-maker needs to keep it`s audience captured while there watching your film. Different and excitting transitions are needed. I`m not talking about the one`s that Premiere or studio do, but ones that You do with a final fade or sharp cut to the next scene.
Last night I watched a film of Bruges that a club member did. It was ok, but as for a film with style that would keep you wanting for more, then it wasn`t to be. As few more closeups and weard camera angles would have been needed. Make the peoples brains work alittle bit.

As for subjects that are out of the ordenary or a bit dodge, then.... Not here mate!!!!
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billyfromConsett
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Post by billyfromConsett »

But this is the film world we live in Stingman.

I saw a roadshow recently - the best films a club have done in a couple of years. The films were of decent enough standard. Most would have got bronze or bronze plus in Biaff.

But they were movies about visiting watermills, or wandering by rivers, or trips around the local countryside.

I'm not critising at all, it was a pleasant night's entertainment. Maybe when we're 70 we'll do gentle stuff like that. A young guy in the club said "films made by old people, for old people".

When a tutor from a uni visited last year and showed some student stuff, get the kind of crits they got?! "Rubbish! too much graphics! Too much filth! etc" The tutor couldn't win.

I've just made contact with an independent film-maker who may get funding to do bigger projects, and whose selection of flicks on myspace are a little different to our club fayre.

Not sure if he made all the movies, but on here, he made the top one "Octane" http://www.myspace.com/tyler_waynethompson

So Stingman, how about a brief crit for "Octane" or any of the others...
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A good story

Post by Ray Williamson »

I think that mostly films need a good story. I say "mostly" because if it is a music video or just a bit of fun a story is not quite so important.
So those apart, you need to use good storytelling skills to put that story over. The same "tricks" used by public speakers to grip an audience can be adapted to the screen.
The story should be clear. If your audience is wondering what is going on, that`s no good: you need make sure the film shows or explains everything, one way or another. Do not assume that the audience knows what you know, or that something is "obvious".
Then you need good film-making skills to deliver it to the screen.
That`s all there is to it!
Ray Williamson, East Sussex.
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Post by stingman »

billyfromConsett wrote:But this is the film world we live in Stingman.

I saw a roadshow recently - the best films a club have done in a couple of years. The films were of decent enough standard. Most would have got bronze or bronze plus in Biaff.

But they were movies about visiting watermills, or wandering by rivers, or trips around the local countryside.

I'm not critising at all, it was a pleasant night's entertainment. Maybe when we're 70 we'll do gentle stuff like that. A young guy in the club said "films made by old people, for old people".

When a tutor from a uni visited last year and showed some student stuff, get the kind of crits they got?! "Rubbish! too much graphics! Too much filth! etc" The tutor couldn't win.

I've just made contact with an independent film-maker who may get funding to do bigger projects, and whose selection of flicks on myspace are a little different to our club fayre.

Not sure if he made all the movies, but on here, he made the top one "Octane" http://www.myspace.com/tyler_waynethompson

So Stingman, how about a brief crit for "Octane" or any of the others...
That`s what I mean about most clubs. I`m 41, and am the youngest! The next 2 are 50 with another big jump to 70, 80 and beyond. The members make reasonable films, but they are just not excitting. The Watermill is a good example. Most of us know how it would turn out. I would give it the `Top Gear` type of treatment. It`s not hard to incorporate unusual shots.

I`ll check out `Octane` and give it the judges view over the weekend and report next week!

Cheers Billy
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Post by ned c »

Just a note that age is just numbers and does not necessarily dictate a style of film making.

Of course the audience should be intrigued; baffled; amazed; lost. We are NOT making films for a financial return like the formulaic block busters Hollywood turns out, I sort of hope we are making films with something to say whether narrative or documentary. All successful films MUST address the human condition to engage an audience, no matter how small. here are some n-c films I have seen recently and enjoyed

The Pinnacle, the story of a man's obsession with ballroom dancing and his reward.
Life's Little Gaps, how a mentaly handicapped man handles a dangerous situation.
The Wishing Well, the search for love rewarded.
Candlelight, integrity maintained in dire circumstances.
Maybe Today, the challenge of aging.
Flowers for Father, caring about people.

Most successful documentaries are about the people in them rather than the "machinery" which is essentially a Hitchock McGuffin. The watermill would come to life with the characters who restored it and maintain it. Give me an obsessed nut any day of the week for good cinema, darn the trains talk to the train number collectors!

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Post by billyfromConsett »

ned c wrote:Just a note that age is just numbers and does not necessarily dictate a style of film making.
Comes pretty close to dictating, and I see quite a close link. Few of our older members are putting action flicks on youtube or myspace. Holiday and tavelog movies are their focused domain.

What are n-c films? You don't mean films you make Ned?
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Post by stingman »

The films you mention all look good and it would be excellent if our club members did more. I`ll give some of them a bit of credit.... Some of the documentrys some of them make are pretty good, but still lack in the visual department. They just need that extra camera style and a bit more creative editing!
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Post by ned c »

What are n-c films? You don't mean films you make Ned?
Hadn't thought of that before but a good idea, actually it stands for "non-commercial" films/videos. We prefer it to "amateur" as this has been redefined by the film/TV industry (and most other industries) to mean inferior, of poor quality, shoddy. When the TV news shows material shot by a non-professional they label it "amateur movie" and use the worst and shakiest bits, there is even a suspicion that if it looks too good they degrade it in case it looks as good as their own stuff.

I suspect that many of the BIAFF/Guernsey etc winners are pensioners so beware the age generalisations.

ned c (nc film maker!)
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Post by billyfromConsett »

Oh, that's what n-c means....

Agreed, it's a better way of describing our movies. I'll start using that term.
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