Limits

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
Dave Watterson

Limits

Post by Dave Watterson » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:56 pm

Reviews of "V for Vendetta" (just released in the UK) express concern that
as the movie involves terrorist attacks in London, including one on a tube
train, that it may be too close to recent tragedy to be acceptable.

Are there any subject which you would not tackle for reasons of respect /
taste / morality / decency.

There is also a news story in the UK about a teenager being arrested and
fined for swearing during conversation with his mates.

Does bad language in non-commercial movies worry you? (Please resist the
temptation to swear online - there are no controls on this forum to stop
children seeing it!)

Dave

PS In a recent search session I began to notice that this forum has been
indexed by the google-monster ... beware, what you write may influence millions!

Ian Gardner

Re: Limits

Post by Ian Gardner » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:18 pm

"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
Reviews of "V for Vendetta" (just released in the UK) express concern that
as the movie involves terrorist attacks in London, including one on a tube
train, that it may be too close to recent tragedy to be acceptable.

Are there any subject which you would not tackle for reasons of respect
/
taste / morality / decency.
I would tackle anything if I had the resourses and felt sefer in my home.
We spoke about this sort of thing before. If I filmed something about `Chavs`,
then I would certainly go off the Island to film it just incase of a vendetta
against me. If `blue movies` are included then I would think not as my wife
wouldn`t like it!
There is also a news story in the UK about a teenager being arrested and
fined for swearing during conversation with his mates.
It`s about time that this has happened. Our society is getting worse, all
because of peoples rights. In my eyes, no one has real rights if they do
wrong. I would stick 10 prisoners to a cell and keep the door locked.
Does bad language in non-commercial movies worry you? (Please resist the
temptation to swear online - there are no controls on this forum to stop
children seeing it!)
There`s really no need for it. Swearing doesn`t make you big. In fact, it
makes you out of control.
Dave

PS In a recent search session I began to notice that this forum has been
indexed by the google-monster ... beware, what you write may influence millions!
Fame at last!

Ian (waiting for stardom) Gardner

ned c

Re: Limits

Post by ned c » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:55 pm

It would obviously be very unwise to make films critical of Muslims and here
in the USA the religious right fill the same spot and do not take kindly
to criticism/adverse comment. Bad language is used to excess in commercial
films in my opinion, not that I don't use it but it loses its impact when
every sentence is laced with it. In certain sectors of society bad language
is a very large part of normal conversation. (true story: I was involved
in the production of a film of a large civil engineering project off the
West coast of Scotland, when I told the chief engineer, a Dutch woman, that
we were having the narration done by a Scot she asked how we had found one
who could complete a sentence without saying f---)I am amazed that anyone
would be arrested for swearing this sounds like an urban legend. In the 1970s
we made a film about rape and its aftermath, it was in no way explicit but
came in for a lot of flak from the amateur world. Times have changed and
I have now watched a number of amateur films and even now very few of them
address even slightly controversial subjects. In the "independent" film world
there seem to be no limits.

Ned C




"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
Reviews of "V for Vendetta" (just released in the UK) express concern that
as the movie involves terrorist attacks in London, including one on a tube
train, that it may be too close to recent tragedy to be acceptable.

Are there any subject which you would not tackle for reasons of respect
/
taste / morality / decency.

There is also a news story in the UK about a teenager being arrested and
fined for swearing during conversation with his mates.

Does bad language in non-commercial movies worry you? (Please resist the
temptation to swear online - there are no controls on this forum to stop
children seeing it!)

Dave

PS In a recent search session I began to notice that this forum has been
indexed by the google-monster ... beware, what you write may influence millions!

Fraught

Re: Limits

Post by Fraught » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:58 pm

Surely the only limits we should have are those of our own conscience. In
the current climate i personally wouldn't make a film critical of Muslims,
but thats not to say that i wouldn't ever. Then again, i'm not one for picking
on anyone inparticular, but if i felt strongly about a certain subject then
i would express it. As long as i'm fully aware of the potential backlash
i may get. When i made 'The Book of Joshua', i was fully expecting some people
to want to argue with me over its content... i actually made the film with
the full intent on getting it to make people want to discuss it. Annoyingly
no one did! LOL...

Bad language works when used correctly... but is annoying when used all the
time.



"ned c" <neddy@wst.com> wrote:
It would obviously be very unwise to make films critical of Muslims and
here
in the USA the religious right fill the same spot and do not take kindly
to criticism/adverse comment. Bad language is used to excess in commercial
films in my opinion, not that I don't use it but it loses its impact when
every sentence is laced with it. In certain sectors of society bad language
is a very large part of normal conversation. (true story: I was involved
in the production of a film of a large civil engineering project off the
West coast of Scotland, when I told the chief engineer, a Dutch woman, that
we were having the narration done by a Scot she asked how we had found one
who could complete a sentence without saying f---)I am amazed that anyone
would be arrested for swearing this sounds like an urban legend. In the
1970s
we made a film about rape and its aftermath, it was in no way explicit but
came in for a lot of flak from the amateur world. Times have changed and
I have now watched a number of amateur films and even now very few of them
address even slightly controversial subjects. In the "independent" film
world
there seem to be no limits.

Ned C

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:57 pm

"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
Reviews of "V for Vendetta" (just released in the UK) express concern that
as the movie involves terrorist attacks in London, including one on a tube
train, that it may be too close to recent tragedy to be acceptable.

Are there any subject which you would not tackle for reasons of respect
/
taste / morality / decency.

There is also a news story in the UK about a teenager being arrested and
fined for swearing during conversation with his mates.

Does bad language in non-commercial movies worry you? (Please resist the
temptation to swear online - there are no controls on this forum to stop
children seeing it!)

Dave
There should be no cencorship at all. The case of the person fined for swearing
(using the F word) on his mobile phone just proves that we live in a police
state. It was a member of the British Gestapo that overheard him (A police
woman in other words).

You can hear the F word and others on TV almost most nights, and most 7 year
olds know how to use them too. Maybe that is unfortunate, but they are only
words.

Swearing and obscenities are boring if just used for no purpose. They can
be effective in a given circumstance in a film or TV drama.

We must guard against any errosion of our civil liberties and freedom of
speech. We don't want Macarthyism here in Britain, although I fear we already
have it. It is an arrestable offence to read out the names of the war dead
by that monument in Whitehall, without prior police permission, as was proved
recently.

I think some of the statements which have just been made here about swearing,
only show how old fashioned and out of touch some people on this forum are!!

I'm afraid such things are one of the reasons I no longer want to be part
of the video club scene. I suppose I had better say no more and not enlarge
on that.

Ned C

Re: Limits

Post by Ned C » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:07 pm

"Peter" <f@f.com> wrote:
I think some of the statements which have just been made here about swearing,
only show how old fashioned and out of touch some people on this forum are!!
Which comments are those?
I'm afraid such things are one of the reasons I no longer want to be part
of the video club scene. I suppose I had better say no more and not enlarge
on that.
Please enlarge as we want to have a discussion here not cryptic and undeveloped
comments

Ned C

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:22 pm

"Ned C" <neddy@fred.com> wrote:
"Peter" <f@f.com> wrote:

I think some of the statements which have just been made here about swearing,
only show how old fashioned and out of touch some people on this forum
are!!

Which comments are those?


I'm afraid such things are one of the reasons I no longer want to be part
of the video club scene. I suppose I had better say no more and not enlarge
on that.

Please enlarge as we want to have a discussion here not cryptic and undeveloped
comments

Ned C

Mr G in fact.
Well, youv'e asked for it!!

Some people, and the jury is still out on this one for me, think that a lot
of video societies are made up of a lot of old fogey's. I am pretty old myself,
so I must come under this category too. But it's the attitude I'm afraid.
Anything new, or a bit sensationalist, is immediately dismissed - and if
you are guilty of any rule breaking then you are sent to the nearest suburb
of Coventry. Any artistic avenue that does not fit the rules is dissmissed,
and any young person who dares to challenge is looked on with contempt.

That of course is the worst case scenario, and I have not belonged to a club,
let me hasten to add, that fits this description. I do however believe that
are are such societies out there, and even the best have a leaning towards
this way of thinking.

Sorry if you thought my comments cryptic and underdeveloped, Ned C, but I
don't want to upset anyone or cause a heart attack. I suupose I have probably
done just that though ... Oh, to hell, let's say what we think!

Ned C

Re: Limits

Post by Ned C » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:55 pm

Thanks for your reply and keeping the debate going. I doubt your comments
have brought on any heart attacks. The amateur film world is in transition
between a very traditional approach to film to a new model where the relatively
easy-to-use technology has opened up the field to a new level of creativity.
Obviously many film makers are experimenting with the new possibilities and
making films that are very different. It has always been the case that Festivals
tend to have a preferred content and a quick check on Google will turn up
many Festivals that will welcome films that follow a different paradigm and
I am sure you will be able to find a welcoming home for your films.

Censorship in one form or another will always be with us, we run a Festival
(www.ampsvideo.com) open to all genre except pornography, which we exclude
for both legal and taste reasons, erotica is great, porn is degrading. Feel
free to debate this, Peter.

Clubs are usually made up of like-minded people so if you do not fit in then
it will always be difficult. I think film making is best done as a small
group or even individual activity, rather like a film unit. Film makers are
often individualists and may not be very "clubbable" between productions.

I have lived in many parts of the world, some more politically undesirable
than others and the USA and the UK enjoy levels of freedom many envy. I know
we have to work to protect this freedom but it is there. Peter, what is it
you want to do in film making that you feel is constrained by the political
scene in the UK?

The big problem for all of us non-commercial film makers is getting the results
of our work seen and commented on, any suggestions? I would love to comment
on the "Book of Joshua", how can I get to see it?

Ned C




"Peter" <F@f.com> wrote:
Well, youv'e asked for it!!

Some people, and the jury is still out on this one for me, think that a
lot
of video societies are made up of a lot of old fogey's. I am pretty old
myself,
so I must come under this category too. But it's the attitude I'm afraid.
Anything new, or a bit sensationalist, is immediately dismissed - and if
you are guilty of any rule breaking then you are sent to the nearest suburb
of Coventry. Any artistic avenue that does not fit the rules is dissmissed,
and any young person who dares to challenge is looked on with contempt.

That of course is the worst case scenario, and I have not belonged to a
club,
let me hasten to add, that fits this description. I do however believe that
are are such societies out there, and even the best have a leaning towards
this way of thinking.

Sorry if you thought my comments cryptic and underdeveloped, Ned C, but
I
don't want to upset anyone or cause a heart attack. I suupose I have probably
done just that though ... Oh, to hell, let's say what we think!

Ian Gardner

Re: Limits

Post by Ian Gardner » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:22 pm

"Ned C" <ned@fred.com> wrote:
Thanks for your reply and keeping the debate going. I doubt your comments
have brought on any heart attacks. The amateur film world is in transition
between a very traditional approach to film to a new model where the relatively
easy-to-use technology has opened up the field to a new level of creativity.
Obviously many film makers are experimenting with the new possibilities
and
making films that are very different. It has always been the case that Festivals
tend to have a preferred content and a quick check on Google will turn up
many Festivals that will welcome films that follow a different paradigm
and
I am sure you will be able to find a welcoming home for your films.

Censorship in one form or another will always be with us, we run a Festival
(www.ampsvideo.com) open to all genre except pornography, which we exclude
for both legal and taste reasons, erotica is great, porn is degrading. Feel
free to debate this, Peter.

Clubs are usually made up of like-minded people so if you do not fit in
then
it will always be difficult. I think film making is best done as a small
group or even individual activity, rather like a film unit. Film makers
are
often individualists and may not be very "clubbable" between productions.

I have lived in many parts of the world, some more politically undesirable
than others and the USA and the UK enjoy levels of freedom many envy. I
know
we have to work to protect this freedom but it is there. Peter, what is
it
you want to do in film making that you feel is constrained by the political
scene in the UK?

The big problem for all of us non-commercial film makers is getting the
results
of our work seen and commented on, any suggestions? I would love to comment
on the "Book of Joshua", how can I get to see it?

Ned C




"Peter" <F@f.com> wrote:

Well, youv'e asked for it!!

Some people, and the jury is still out on this one for me, think that a
lot
of video societies are made up of a lot of old fogey's. I am pretty old
myself,
so I must come under this category too. But it's the attitude I'm afraid.
Anything new, or a bit sensationalist, is immediately dismissed - and if
you are guilty of any rule breaking then you are sent to the nearest suburb
of Coventry. Any artistic avenue that does not fit the rules is dissmissed,
and any young person who dares to challenge is looked on with contempt.

That of course is the worst case scenario, and I have not belonged to a
club,
let me hasten to add, that fits this description. I do however believe
that
are are such societies out there, and even the best have a leaning towards
this way of thinking.

Sorry if you thought my comments cryptic and underdeveloped, Ned C, but
I
don't want to upset anyone or cause a heart attack. I suupose I have probably
done just that though ... Oh, to hell, let's say what we think!
Great Debate going. This sort of topic always gets to peoples hearts. Good
one Dave!
But do we really live in a `Free` society? Can I really say what I want
to about Muslims on here? I think not. We live in a Christian country but
we have to take stick from all people (who wern`t even born here!) But if
we critise `their so called ways` they we would get the backlash! Take those
``Cartoons` as an example. If it had been about Christ, then we certainly
would not have wanted peoples heads! And they say that Muslims are a peacefull
people. (insert naughty word word).
But I do think that we should be able to make whatever films we like, but
only keeping with ones taste.
As people know, I`m trying to inject new ideas into our club. I`m the youngest
at 39, the next is 45 then the rest are retired. I`m not saying older peoples
films are rubbish, but.... The older you are, the harder it is to change
with the time and think up new ideas. I have been the first in my club to
do this. Each film I make, I try to do something different. We ALL learn
that way.
Would the "Book of Joshua", be about the morons er mormans.
I could type all day about this but I would proberly get something bad sent
to me through the post. I am just an Englishman trying to stop my country
being sold out to the `M`s`. Maybe I should do a film about it. The trouble
with that is that I speak what 90% of the basic working class think but are
too scared to admit.

Ian (Rule Britannia!!!!!!) Gardner.

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:54 pm

"Ned C" <ned@fred.com> wrote:
Thanks for your reply and keeping the debate going. I doubt your comments
have brought on any heart attacks. The amateur film world is in transition
between a very traditional approach to film to a new model where the relatively
easy-to-use technology has opened up the field to a new level of creativity.


I'm always ready to talk - if you can stand it!
Censorship in one form or another will always be with us, we run a Festival
(www.ampsvideo.com) open to all genre except pornography, which we exclude
for both legal and taste reasons, erotica is great, porn is degrading. Feel
free to debate this, Peter.

I don't think censorship is acceptable. Fine if you want to protect children,
or have club rules, which in your example sound pretty fair and quite liberal.
I personally don't want to make pornographic films, or erotica for that matter,
but censorship only serves the criminals because such things are then driven
underground, or under-the-counter.
Clubs are usually made up of like-minded people so if you do not fit in
then
it will always be difficult.

I was in a club for 12 years, but in the end (say the last three years) I
became dislusioned in many ways, and in the end drifted out. I rarely make
films these days, but that's not to say I won't ever come back to it.
I have lived in many parts of the world, some more politically undesirable
than others and the USA and the UK enjoy levels of freedom many envy.

I don't agree here at all!! The USA is a terrible place, with a terrible
government, and Britain is now just as bad. Our freedoms are being eroded
on a daily basis.
Peter

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:08 pm

"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

Great Debate going. This sort of topic always gets to peoples hearts. Good
one Dave!


I don't think this is a great debate when you are so politically insensitive
and attack Muslims in such a biased way.

It was a so called Christian, Tony Blair, that attacked a sovereign country,
along with his cowboy friend, GW Bush. Both should face a firing squad for
this criminal act of murder.
But do we really live in a `Free` society? Can I really say what I want
to about Muslims on here? I think not. We live in a Christian country but
we have to take stick from all people (who wern`t even born here!) But if
we critise `their so called ways` they we would get the backlash! Take those
``Cartoons` as an example. If it had been about Christ, then we certainly
would not have wanted peoples heads! And they say that Muslims are a peacefull
people. (insert naughty word word).
But I do think that we should be able to make whatever films we like, but
only keeping with ones taste.
Go on making the films you like, as it sounds like you are totally without
any taste, and so bigotted, and no one would want to watch them anyway!
As people know, I`m trying to inject new ideas into our club. I`m the youngest
at 39, the next is 45 then the rest are retired. I`m not saying older peoples
films are rubbish, but.... The older you are, the harder it is to change
with the time and think up new ideas. I have been the first in my club to
do this. Each film I make, I try to do something different. We ALL learn
that way.

People don't know - or care!
You sound like someone who is at least 89, not 39.
Would the "Book of Joshua", be about the morons er mormans.
I could type all day about this but I would proberly get something bad
sent
to me through the post. I am just an Englishman trying to stop my country
being sold out to the `M`s`. Maybe I should do a film about it. The trouble
with that is that I speak what 90% of the basic working class think but
are
too scared to admit.
The British have been doing these sort of propagander films for years. I
note you are English and that it is "your" country, which is the typically
bigotted frame of mind that made Britain a Colonial power and led to the
English in particular becoming "the rapist of the world."

"Morons" - well you should know one, as it take one ...
Ian (Rule Britannia!!!!!!) Gardner.

Britannia did rule the world, but I'm pleased that we rule a lot less (apart
from Iraq) these days.

Ian Gardner

Re: Limits

Post by Ian Gardner » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:50 pm

"Peter" <P@C.com> wrote:
"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


Great Debate going. This sort of topic always gets to peoples hearts. Good
one Dave!


I don't think this is a great debate when you are so politically insensitive
and attack Muslims in such a biased way.
Just protecting my freedom! This isn`t the place to discuss this anyway.
Are you sure your name isn`t abdul?
It was a so called Christian, Tony Blair, that attacked a sovereign country,
along with his cowboy friend, GW Bush. Both should face a firing squad for
this criminal act of murder.
And what`s that got to do with filming?
Go on making the films you like, as it sounds like you are totally without
any taste, and so bigotted, and no one would want to watch them anyway!
At least they don`t fall asleep! I make comody films! You got that wrong.
People don't know - or care!
You sound like someone who is at least 89, not 39.
And you sound like you still live at home.
The British have been doing these sort of propagander films for years. I
note you are English and that it is "your" country, which is the typically
bigotted frame of mind that made Britain a Colonial power and led to the
English in particular becoming "the rapist of the world."
Someones got to stick up for their country before all these other countries
try to take over it. The Scots were Brave, they stuck up for themselves.
Ian (Rule Britannia!!!!!!) Gardner.

Britannia did rule the world, but I'm pleased that we rule a lot less (apart
from Iraq) these days.
Thats` alright then, were become a 3rd world country then.

Anyway. I`m not prepaired to talk about this any more unless it is about
Making Films, which is why were here!
Ian (God Save The Queen)Gardner

Dave Watterson

Re: Limits

Post by Dave Watterson » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:32 pm

Cool it, guys!

Debating ideas is fine, but let's not start criticising each other. It is
a fine line, but an important one.

If we stick to our topic of what you, personally, would or would not be prepared
to put into your films we will, I suspect, get an interesting range of replies.

What is or is not acceptable to clubs and festivals is a separate issue.
In those cases you join a group and have to play by their rules ... or work
within their system to amend their rules.

Most hobby clubs that I know in any field, not just video, tend to be organised
and run by older, slightly more conseravtive (small c) people. Those are
the kind of people prepared to do the work of running clubs. What matters
then is how much you let their comments worry you. I'm usually inclined
to accept all the good things and suffer the bad ones as the price of being
in the group.

And let's not lose sight of the difference between theory and practice. In
theory (in principle) I don't like any censorship and don't mind porn. In
the wider world I would prefer people to be able to accept or reject porn
etc as they might accept or reject some foods. If it is to their taste fine.
If not, not.

But in practice I am usually careful to fit in with the majority - unless
there is a very powerful reason not to in some specific case.

Dave (the meek and mild)

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:02 am

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Cool it, guys!

Debating ideas is fine, but let's not start criticising each other. It is
a fine line, but an important one.

If we stick to our topic of what you, personally, would or would not be
prepared
to put into your films we will, I suspect, get an interesting range of replies.


I don't disagree, but the trouble is that we have a blatant racist making
these posts. I don't mnd the fact that he is extremely ignorant, has poor
English and can't spell (we all make some mistakes here), but he is a "little
englishman" in the worst sense. (I deliberately avoided capitals within those
quotation marks).

He even accuses me of being a Muslim, simply because I have exposed his racist
hysteria. I would rather be a Muslim any day, than a narrow minded bigoted
"little english comedy (yes, he is a joke) film-maker."

He is bringing this message board into disrepute.
What is or is not acceptable to clubs and festivals is a separate issue.
In those cases you join a group and have to play by their rules ... or
work
within their system to amend their rules.

Most hobby clubs that I know in any field, not just video, tend to be organised
and run by older, slightly more conseravtive (small c) people. Those are
the kind of people prepared to do the work of running clubs. What matters
then is how much you let their comments worry you. I'm usually inclined
to accept all the good things and suffer the bad ones as the price of being
in the group.

And let's not lose sight of the difference between theory and practice.
In
theory (in principle) I don't like any censorship and don't mind porn. In
the wider world I would prefer people to be able to accept or reject porn
etc as they might accept or reject some foods. If it is to their taste fine.
If not, not.

But in practice I am usually careful to fit in with the majority - unless
there is a very powerful reason not to in some specific case.

Dave (the meek and mild)

Peter

Re: Limits

Post by Peter » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:44 am

">>
"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


Thats` alright then, were become a 3rd world country then.

Yes, because it's full of people like you! ("were become ...)
Did you go to school??
Anyway. I`m not prepaired to talk about this any more unless it is about
Making Films, which is why were here!
Ian (God Save The Queen)Gardner

So you are beaten? Bury your head in the sand, then, Mr Racist.

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