About the filming rules...

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
Willy Van der Linden

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Willy Van der Linden » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:06 am

"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
"Willy Van der Linden" <vanderlindenhig@telenet.be> wrote:

I've been a chairman for almost 20 years ! We need young energetic
and hardworking people to save our film clubs. Perhaps also in Britain.
Let's talk about it in our film club next time.
Cheers.
Willy

That`s one of the reasons that in our film club, the Chairman`s reign lasts
for only two years. Our government lasts for about 4 years. Maybe were more
democratic! Other reasons would include that if it was a forever post then
the club would indeed become stale and boreing! If the Chairman and his
committee
get it wrong, then the problem will only last a maximum of two years, or
he resigns before. I don`t know about other clubs in England.
The secretary`s job (on the otherhand) can last as long as you want it
to,
maybe because it`s a harder job with more paperwork, the same as the Treasurer.
There are some people that we get on better with then others, may be it`s
a personality clash or everytime they open there mouths, `me, me, me,` comes
out of it all the time. If the Chairmans job was for life, and you didn`t
like the person, then it could be a problem.
We choose our Chairman by putting names forward, and then we do a public
members vote at the AGM.
Oh dear Ian,
Putting names forward ! Nobody wants to be Chairman of our club. I've given
my members two years to find a new Chairman.To keep my club alive I also
have to do all the paperwork. It's a full-time job. Luckily I still have
a good Treasurer. I have a very good team you know. We help each other making
films, etc... We also have some very good technicians ... But paperwork and
organizing activities ... ! We're not the only club with that problem.

Some months ago a Belgian club with about 15 very good filmmakers had to
be dissolved. One of their filmmakers even won a BIAFF international medaillon
in Norwich some years ago. His name is De Wulf. He worked on that film together
with André Lemahieu. The Chairman and secretary resigned. The film makers
had to join other clubs. That's something I would like to avoid. I myself
would like to save my club. It was founded in 1960 !

May be your club could change the rules and have a 2 year rule instead.

Ian (IWVCC Secretary for 10 months) Gardner

Fraught

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Fraught » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:48 pm

Hi Peter... i know where you are coming from on this. Personally, I've always
been one to make 'genre' films... like Sci-Fi, Action, Horror... i'm not
one for documentaries etc (My recent attempt at this didn't go down too well
at BIAFF! LOL) But that's not to say i wont try to have a go at other types
of films...
You need to stretch your filmic wings and attempt things outside of your
favourite style... who knows... one day i may try and do comedy and be actually
good at it! :-)


"Peter" <John@ogroats.com> wrote:
"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:

Davy and Graeme have picked up the theme of the age difference within most
clubs ...

In Britain IAC has always been clear that it serves ALL amateur film makers.
If they just want to make better movies of grandchildren and holidays,
fine.
If they want to make traditional top quality documentaries, great. If they
create safe, theatrical or 1980's tv style drama, hurrah. If they make
fast-cut,
NYPD Blue, punky movies .... er.

Theoretically we should all try to accept each other's work - whether or
not it is the style we prefer. In practice it is hard for many older people
to adapt and accept the faster-paced work of today.

It has always been easier to play to the middle ground - to aim for an
interested,
intelligent audience that is not necessarily bang up-to-date.

But as better folk than I have said ... go for it!

Use a club to learn what you can, to enjoy the older style work and to
meet
some wonderful people. But don't let it dictate what you do. Stuff competitions
and festivals if they don't like that.

The problem is that you need to find people who are open to that type of
movie to tell you whether or not your film works. The "Bourne Supremacy"
style demands a camera operator and editor who can judge precisely when
the
audience will be able to understand what they are shown and when it becomes
too much and muddled. It takes a lot of skill. The older kind of work
is
easier - still damn hard to get right, but easier.

Belgium appears from this side of the Channel to suffer from a lot of "politics"
with suggestions of power cliques who run things their way. I realise that
for clubs themselves there may be a financial benefit to staying on the
right
side of those at the top of the tree. But for individual film makers -
why
worry? (Or have I got the wrong impression?)

Dave (the Scots one)

Yes, OK, but how many people in clubs make the more way out films? I know
that there are one or two people doing very fine documentaries, and there
are some very good films being made, like the one on the IAC website (of
the child on the train with the space age planes flying alongside, which
is brilliant), but mostly its "down at the steam railway" or something similar.

OK, I know I will have upset some steam enthusiasts by giving that as an
example, but its true.

Davy

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Davy » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:45 pm

I have the impression that e.g. older people (i mean this with respect) don't
always get it, and are trapped within a set of rules. Mostly this people
are the jury because they are "old and wise", wich is true, no doubt about
it. But if they would watch "the Blair Witch project" they would probably
hate it. This was almost a cultfilm. In a club nearby the president has tried
to compose a jury of proffesional people but this turned out a disaster.
Films have been criticised as "to nice" or "to lame".
I think it's like this in Belgium:
Or you make a film the way you like (however this is) and you don't care
what anybody says
Or you make a film following all the rules and make it as good as possible
according to what you think a jury will like (and be cross if you don't like
the criticism)

I think if you make a genre film about the "older" peoples concers you'll
get better points. (e.g. illness, alzheimer's, the war, etc...)
Documentary's about traveling, animals, history or flora will be enjoyed
by anyone.
But if you make a blair witch you'ld probably get burned :-)


greetings Davy

Please note that I don't want to offend anybody, I have a limited English
vocabulary and sometimes i don't know if a phrase wich i translated in English
has the same meaning as in Dutch.


"Fraught" <info@fraught.net> wrote:
Hi Peter... i know where you are coming from on this. Personally, I've always
been one to make 'genre' films... like Sci-Fi, Action, Horror... i'm not
one for documentaries etc (My recent attempt at this didn't go down too
well
at BIAFF! LOL) But that's not to say i wont try to have a go at other types
of films...
You need to stretch your filmic wings and attempt things outside of your
favourite style... who knows... one day i may try and do comedy and be actually
good at it! :-)


"Peter" <John@ogroats.com> wrote:

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:

Davy and Graeme have picked up the theme of the age difference within
most
clubs ...

In Britain IAC has always been clear that it serves ALL amateur film makers.
If they just want to make better movies of grandchildren and holidays,
fine.
If they want to make traditional top quality documentaries, great. If
they
create safe, theatrical or 1980's tv style drama, hurrah. If they make
fast-cut,
NYPD Blue, punky movies .... er.

Theoretically we should all try to accept each other's work - whether
or
not it is the style we prefer. In practice it is hard for many older people
to adapt and accept the faster-paced work of today.

It has always been easier to play to the middle ground - to aim for an
interested,
intelligent audience that is not necessarily bang up-to-date.

But as better folk than I have said ... go for it!

Use a club to learn what you can, to enjoy the older style work and to
meet
some wonderful people. But don't let it dictate what you do. Stuff competitions
and festivals if they don't like that.

The problem is that you need to find people who are open to that type
of
movie to tell you whether or not your film works. The "Bourne Supremacy"
style demands a camera operator and editor who can judge precisely when
the
audience will be able to understand what they are shown and when it becomes
too much and muddled. It takes a lot of skill. The older kind of work
is
easier - still damn hard to get right, but easier.

Belgium appears from this side of the Channel to suffer from a lot of
"politics"
with suggestions of power cliques who run things their way. I realise
that
for clubs themselves there may be a financial benefit to staying on the
right
side of those at the top of the tree. But for individual film makers -
why
worry? (Or have I got the wrong impression?)

Dave (the Scots one)

Yes, OK, but how many people in clubs make the more way out films? I know
that there are one or two people doing very fine documentaries, and there
are some very good films being made, like the one on the IAC website (of
the child on the train with the space age planes flying alongside, which
is brilliant), but mostly its "down at the steam railway" or something
similar.

OK, I know I will have upset some steam enthusiasts by giving that as an
example, but its true.

Dave Watterson

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Dave Watterson » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:16 pm

"Davy" <Davyvdbergh@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have the impression that e.g. older people (i mean this with respect)
don't
always get it, and are trapped within a set of rules. Mostly this people
are the jury because they are "old and wise", wich is true, no doubt about
it. But if they would watch "the Blair Witch project" they would probably
hate it.
It seems to me there is some truth in this. In Britain it feels as if we
have two types of judge which I mentally label: "club" and "art".

"Club" judges are the kind you describe. They prefer the tried and true style.
They usually like a slower pace of cutting and often enjoy the idea behind
the movie more than what actually appears on screen. For example, they recognise
the signs that it is intended as a comedy and they laugh, even if what is
shown is not very funny. They prefer the sort of films most of us can make
if we work at it but are distrustful of anything more elaborate.

"Art" judges only seem to like the obscure, difficult, unusual movies which
it is hard for most of us to understand without a written explanation. They
appear to find the "club" movies beneath them.

[I'm usually reckoned to be an "Art" type judge, I think, though I try to
keep my horizons broad and to take each film as I find it without being prejudiced
against any particular style.]
Please note that I don't want to offend anybody, I have a limited English
vocabulary and sometimes i don't know if a phrase wich i translated in English
has the same meaning as in Dutch.
Don't worry about it, Davy. Most of us British people are not good at speaking
other languages, let alone the harder task of writing them. I cannot say
one sentence in Dutch - unless "tot sienz" counts. We are pleased to have
you with us. It is always interesting to see how other people work in our
hobby.

Besides we like a rebel!

Dave

Willy Van der Linden

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Willy Van der Linden » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:30 am

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Besides we like a rebel!
Yes, you're right, Dave. Davy is a rebel. He's a bit like Serge Gainsbourg.
Do you remember that French star ? He sang that famous song : "Moi je t'aime
non plus" together with Jane Birkin. He smoked some packets of Gauloises
cigarettes every day. Everywhere you could see adverts of him smoking Gauloises
cigarettes. I liked Serge Gainsbourg. I liked his songs and his non-conformity.
Davy is a bit like that. He can't stop smoking, but luckily the ceiling
of our clubhouse is very high. So I don't mind. But in my opinion he's also
a very positive-minded young member who loves making films and who always
wants to help the other friends of our club. He's very exceptional. He's
not very competitive he has already told us, but last year he won our local
"one minute movie cup" and he looked very very happy. At least there was
a smile on his face. I also felt happy. I was beaten by that young rascal
and this year he did it again ! Being competitive is not wrong. In my opinion
every participant is a winner. In festivals there are no losers !

Dave Watterson

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Dave Watterson » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:43 am

"Willy Van der Linden" <vanderlindenhig@telenet.be> wrote:
Yes, you're right, Dave. Davy is a rebel. He can't stop smoking
Next project for Davy: make a movie about the danger of smoking! I mean
it. Face the questions directly. Making such a movie may not convince you
to change, but it does mean you have looked hard at all the issues.

Watch out for a movie from the excellent Austrian author Bernhard Hausberger.
He was a heavy smoker. One of his new films includes shots of part of his
lung being removed and the misery of chemotherapy.

Where are our films about bird flu? What about climate change? Where are
the political movies?

We have lots of entertaining movies but maybe not enough that tackle serious
and difficult issues.

Dave

sylvia

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by sylvia » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:30 am

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:

Where are our films about bird flu? What about climate change? Where are
the political movies?

We have lots of entertaining movies but maybe not enough that tackle serious
and difficult issues.

Dave
I always wanted to make a poltical film, but the club I belong to has rules
against anything political or religious being aired at the meetings.

I would have to make it as an individual, and it could only be shown outside
my club circle. Do you think I should leave the club?

Sylvia

Dave Watterson

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Dave Watterson » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:29 am

"sylvia" <anna_belle296@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
I always wanted to make a poltical film, but the club I belong to has rules
against anything political or religious being aired at the meetings.

I would have to make it as an individual, and it could only be shown outside
my club circle. Do you think I should leave the club?
I suppose the club wants to avoid strife within its ranks. It is the old
rule about not mentioning relgion or politics in polite conversation. (Or
it may be that the club is a registered charity in which case it is not allowed
legally to "espouse the cause of any poltical party." That still leaves plenty
of room for a wide range of movies on political subjects but the wording
frightens off some club officers.)

If you find there are other aspects of the club you enjoy and find useful,
stick with it. A good club is hard to find and deserves support even if we
don't agree with everything it does.

But why not announce at a meeting that you have a political project in mind
and that though you accept the club cannot be involved, you are looking for
anyone with a like mind to join you in a private group? (A lot of clubs have
specialised sub-groups of members who share an interest and go off to make
movies on their chosen topic.) When the film is made you could invite any
club members who are interested to come to your house and offer their comments
on it.

Then go for the competitions outside the club. Very few have restrictions
on the contents of entries - except to avoid porn. Try several comps - some
judges will react against such themes, others will embrace them.

In other words, enjoy all the club has to offer and support it - but do not
let it restrict your creativity.

Dave

Ned C

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Ned C » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:29 pm

"sylvia" <anna_belle296@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
I always wanted to make a poltical film, but the club I belong to has rules
against anything political or religious being aired at the meetings.

I would have to make it as an individual, and it could only be shown outside
my club circle. Do you think I should leave the club?

Sylvia
Dear Sylvia,

You should leave the club and enter your films in the AMPS Festival, www.ampsvideo.com
I believe that if a film doesn't cause a fist fight in the bar after showing
its not worth seeing. Seriously though are you serious?

Ned C

sylvia

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by sylvia » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:24 am

"Ned C" <ned@ampsvideo.com> wrote:
"sylvia" <anna_belle296@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:


I always wanted to make a poltical film, but the club I belong to has rules
against anything political or religious being aired at the meetings.

I would have to make it as an individual, and it could only be shown outside
my club circle. Do you think I should leave the club?

Sylvia

Dear Sylvia,

You should leave the club and enter your films in the AMPS Festival, www.ampsvideo.com
I believe that if a film doesn't cause a fist fight in the bar after showing
its not worth seeing. Seriously though are you serious?

Ned C

Of course I'm serious. No one in our club has ever made a "political" film,
or one about religion. The committee do not mind breaking the rules, and
have done so, at least in the past, by allowing visits by political figures,
when it suits their purposes.

I have always thought that entering in competitions is a bit of a waste of
time, and in any case, I'm not competitive, being a very timid female. I
think the amateur world is over dominated by men, some of whom, in my club
at least, are "anoracks." That's my humble opinion, anyway.

Sorry if this hurts, and I'm not "anti" men by the way, they have some purpose
occasionally.

sylvia

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by sylvia » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:59 am

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
But why not announce at a meeting that you have a political project in mind
and that though you accept the club cannot be involved, you are looking
for
anyone with a like mind to join you in a private group? (A lot of clubs
have
specialised sub-groups of members who share an interest and go off to make
movies on their chosen topic.) When the film is made you could invite any
club members who are interested to come to your house and offer their comments
on it.

I would just get sent to Coventry and ignored. It is really a club for men.
What I should do is start an all female club, maybe? Any girls out there
want to join me?
Then go for the competitions outside the club. Very few have restrictions
on the contents of entries - except to avoid porn. Try several comps - some
judges will react against such themes, others will embrace them.


Sorry, don't like competitions much.

In other words, enjoy all the club has to offer and support it - but do
not
let it restrict your creativity.

Dave

Perhaps I really should leave, and start my own thing?

Davy

Re: About the filming rules...

Post by Davy » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:23 am

"sylvia" <anna_belle269@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

What I should do is start an all female club, maybe? Any girls out there
want to join me?
Sorry, don't like competitions much.
Perhaps I really should leave, and start my own thing?
You seem a little stressed. Being in a club is not always easy, I know! What
I should do if I was in your shoes was to make a film about anything I like,
the way I like it, about whatever topic I like. Show it to a full theater!
If they like it, Fine! If you get kicked out of your club, just smile and
whistle "these boots are made for walking". And then start your own club!
"All female" would throw an other view over filming as we know it. I have
seen some fantastic 'made by female' films in Belgium.
Just do as you please!

Davy the Smoker kuch kuch

Dave Watterson

Club and competitions

Post by Dave Watterson » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:48 am

Sylvia

Your club does sound especially chauvinist and petty if you would be sent
to Coventry for working independently. Maybe you should leave them to their
own devices. But working alone is tough and another group might be better.
What about your non-film friends? Most people would like to help make a
movie even if they don't have the kit or skills to do it all themselves.

I have visited a video club with one young woman in a sea of men. No, she
was not there with her partner! There seemed to be a level of respect for
her.

My main message though is not to write-off competitions. At national level
they are not - at heart - competitive!

They are really just a way of having your work seen by people outside your
family or club and getting comments on it. If it gets selected for public
screening at a festival that is a nice bonus. If it wins a prize that's
good but not the main point - at least for most of the film makers in this
forum. No doubt there are "gong hunters" out there somewhere too.

Competitions are more like our equivalent of writers workshop groups who
read each other's work and offer advice and responses. Of course you do not
accept all the advice, but sometimes the view of a third party is helpful.

The IAC national comp, for example, spends most of its time and energy on
grading movies into the blue, bronze, silver, gold categories according to
the general level of competence and effectiveness in movie-making. That's
what takes 15 judges working in groups of three from Friday evening to Sunday
late afternoon to do. The awarding of prizes is done by a separate jury
of three who have a much easier time. (I've done both.)

You'll gather that the feeling on this forum is that you should make the
films you want to make ... if the club will not support you, we will.

Dave

Michael Slowe

Re: About the filming rules... (A Belated Comment!)

Post by Michael Slowe » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:18 pm

"Davy" <Davyvdbergh@yahoo.com> wrote:

I think if you make a genre film about the "older" peoples concers you'll
get better points. (e.g. illness, alzheimer's, the war, etc...)
Documentary's about traveling, animals, history or flora will be enjoyed
by anyone.
But if you make a blair witch you'ld probably get burned :-)
Dave, I have only just seen your post and I would like to comment.
The whole point about non commercial film making is that we can make exactly
the sort of films that we want to make. I try and make both what you call
'art' films and more conventional documentaries (but with an 'arty' flavour
I hope) and have had some success at international festivals and competitions.
Having said that I believe that films have to be competantly produced emplying
some technical skill otherwise it loses all impact and meaning. I have to
say that "The Blair Witch Project' was one of the worst commercial films
I have seenin a cinema, and I see a great many in a year. The idea was fine
but it was so badly made. I know the budget was tiny but I honestly think
I could have done it better - I repeat that I have nothing against the theme
or the script even though I am one of the older people you refer to! I
have often been criticised for being too 'arty' so I have nothing against
that genre but at least do it well.

On the matter of subject matter don't let anyone dictate on that, that's
why we don't want to make films for companies or producers and I can't see
why Sylvia is so upset with her club. You don't have to satisfy any club
committee to make a film - go ahead and do it.

Davy

Re: About the filming rules... (A Belated Comment!)

Post by Davy » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:56 pm

I have often been criticised for being too 'arty' so I have nothing against
that genre but at least do it well.
Dear Michael,

I have seen some of your films and I must say they are wonderful! I have
seen (excuse me for I don't remember all the titles) Melissa, one about a
glass factory, one about painting on silk and a shorter flashing film about
a still life. I do know tastes are different and one must always accept someones
point of view. The Blairwich was never been done before and the terror on
the girls face was beyond acting. I seemed real! But it was an unsharp vhs
bad lighted picture! just concider this scene. you could give 10/10 for this
for how strong this scene is or you could give 0/10 cause of the image quality.
This is just the point I'm trying to make. It depends on what you can do.
I want to shoot some images for a future film tomorrow but I was out testing
today and noticed that my camera just isn't capable to shoot this dark (at
night)so I have to "suck something out of my thumb"(Belgian expression) by
tomorrow when the actors come. I have a cheap DV cam. Images are good but
sometimes it's difficult (I don't even have a ring to adjust focus). I just
don't have the money to spend on expensive camera stuff. I'm going to build
a house next winter so I have to save up. Then when you get the only comment
like "It's out of focus for a second" I ask myself have you seen the movie
or did you just look at the focus. I have been a Optical Service Technician
for almost 6 years. I've repaired Leica, Nikon and Olympus both optics and
electonics so I do know what "out of focus" is (Probably better than any
judge in Belgium) But I don't even think about a reshoot. like: this is the
story of my film, now tell me something I DON'T already know. Today I'm an
electronics teacher. I've always been specialised in digital systems. What
I want to hear from a judge is about the story, the creativity or the shots
taken but no technical explanation (in wich they are probably wrong anyway).
I wouldn't mind if one of the judges payed attention to this but not the
whole panel. Maybe I underestimate the task of being a judge (probably)!

Greetings Davy

By the way: what does "Belated" mean?

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