Judge the film or the film maker?

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
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Dave Watterson

Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Dave Watterson »

An interesting dilemma arose recently. Someone made a film which was solely
based on a set of slides taken by two friends. There was no question of hiding
this fact, he clearly stated who took the slides and that this was a tribute
to their fine photography. So the slides were presented to music with only
occasional variation in timing.

When that film comes up in competition ... how should we treat it?

On this occasion the film maker has added very little extra value. But the
film is still beautiful, lyrical and touching.

Few of you will have (or perhaps will ever) see this movie, so take my word
for it that the images were wonderful and the music fitted well. Now, how
would you rate it in competition terms?


Dave
Peter Rouillard

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Peter Rouillard »

"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
An interesting dilemma arose recently. Someone made a film which was solely
based on a set of slides taken by two friends. There was no question of
hiding
this fact, he clearly stated who took the slides and that this was a tribute
to their fine photography. So the slides were presented to music with only
occasional variation in timing.

When that film comes up in competition ... how should we treat it?

On this occasion the film maker has added very little extra value. But the
film is still beautiful, lyrical and touching.

Few of you will have (or perhaps will ever) see this movie, so take my word
for it that the images were wonderful and the music fitted well. Now, how
would you rate it in competition terms?


Dave
Well, I have seen this film Dave, as I was on the pre-selection panel of
judges on this years BIAFF who watched it and gave it a rating. You are right
about the images being wonderful - some were quite stunning, and the film
held an added interest for me because the images were mostly taken in the
places which I have visited - namely the canyonlands of western USA. I believe
there was not a single 'moving' shot throughout as even the pictures of the
photographers featured were still shots. As far as how it should be treated
is concerned, we all thought that it may have been better as an AV presentation
and the criticisms ranged from 'too long (at 10 minutes), some sequences
too repetitive, and shots became too random after a while'.
We all agreed that some moving images should have been included for adding
interest,- perhaps the photographers at work, or perhaps talking to camera
etc.
Whether all judges would look at it this way is open to question, judges
being what they are - you may know something about this Dave - but we were
unanimous in giving it its overall rating.

Peter (judge ye not) Rouillard
Ian Gardner

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Ian Gardner »

"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
An interesting dilemma arose recently. Someone made a film which was solely
based on a set of slides taken by two friends. There was no question of
hiding
this fact, he clearly stated who took the slides and that this was a tribute
to their fine photography. So the slides were presented to music with only
occasional variation in timing.

When that film comes up in competition ... how should we treat it?

On this occasion the film maker has added very little extra value. But the
film is still beautiful, lyrical and touching.

Few of you will have (or perhaps will ever) see this movie, so take my word
for it that the images were wonderful and the music fitted well. Now, how
would you rate it in competition terms?


Dave
I myself, don`t really like to see this in Club competition. National Yes,
but local club NO! It is a sore point for me at the moment. Last year for
the Documentry Competion (All references made are about my feelings from
my club), I entered Ryde Commodore. It came about Fourth. The winning one
(Calbourne Mill) had 5 members from the club doing it! Mine was all by myself.
Calbourne Mill, was done with this many cameras because it was only going
to be working for 5 minutes, so we had as many cameras as possible taking
different angles etc. It was a club film because the owners of the mill wanted
it filmed. The Director/Editor entered it. My reasoning is that it was done
as a club project and not really a single mans entry. If Someone filmed it
by themselves, then they would have not got all the shots and it may have
not been as good as it was. Also we are not dealing with joe bloggs next
door filming it, but people who know how to film so all of it will be better
then just one person filming it. Maybe a seperate comp needs to be done for
multible peoples films. I was very annoied and felt like quitting when it
one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I`m still in a bad mood over it all. We now have in the
club, a neww member who has done narration for Auntie BEEB (BBC, God Bless
Her), he has said that he will do narration free for club members. I won`t
take him up on it unless it`s for non club competitions. He and the Chairman
put an entry in. It came second to last!

Also the film director seems to take the credit for it when all he has done
is say who goes where. For example Goerge Lucus. He did `Star Wars`. Great
film and he took all the credit. He is a Yank. Most of the special effects
were done by British people and companys but the Director took the Oscar!
Crazey!!!!!!!
So I would have disqualified him because all he did was capture the slides
and put them to music. This I could do blindfolded with one hand while singing
the National Anthem and smoking a cigarette, all at the same time. In fact,
most of us have moved on since those early days. I myself would have had
the slides and cut out bits of the paintings (electronicly) and had them
moving and then forming the picture. Then maybe he could take alittle pride.
Dave. I hope this wasn`t one of your films!!!!

Ian Gardner
Ian Gardner

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Ian Gardner »

"Peter Rouillard" <rouillard@cwgsy.net> wrote:
"Dave Watterson" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:

An interesting dilemma arose recently. Someone made a film which was solely
based on a set of slides taken by two friends. There was no question of
hiding
this fact, he clearly stated who took the slides and that this was a tribute
to their fine photography. So the slides were presented to music with only
occasional variation in timing.

When that film comes up in competition ... how should we treat it?

On this occasion the film maker has added very little extra value. But
the
film is still beautiful, lyrical and touching.

Few of you will have (or perhaps will ever) see this movie, so take my
word
for it that the images were wonderful and the music fitted well. Now,
how
would you rate it in competition terms?


Dave

Well, I have seen this film Dave, as I was on the pre-selection panel of
judges on this years BIAFF who watched it and gave it a rating. You are
right
about the images being wonderful - some were quite stunning, and the film
held an added interest for me because the images were mostly taken in the
places which I have visited - namely the canyonlands of western USA. I believe
there was not a single 'moving' shot throughout as even the pictures of
the
photographers featured were still shots. As far as how it should be treated
is concerned, we all thought that it may have been better as an AV presentation
and the criticisms ranged from 'too long (at 10 minutes), some sequences
too repetitive, and shots became too random after a while'.
We all agreed that some moving images should have been included for adding
interest,- perhaps the photographers at work, or perhaps talking to camera
etc.
Whether all judges would look at it this way is open to question, judges
being what they are - you may know something about this Dave - but we were
unanimous in giving it its overall rating.

Peter (judge ye not) Rouillard
We used to have a `Stills to Video Competition` in my club. This would have
fitted the bill perfectly! But 10 minutes! I would have gone to sleep. I
did `War of the Worlds` with WOTW`s Music rearranged by me. Even thro the
original pictures wern`t mine. I cut and pasted bit and altered them in Photoshop
and had them moving and telling a story.
Maybe he got better marks because one of the judges had been to the places
in the film!!

Ian Gardner.
Dave Watterson

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Dave Watterson »

"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
... about two issues relating to how a film / film maker is judged.

It does seem odd to enter a movie made as "a club film" in one of that club's
own competitions. It seems more appropriate to send that to regional or national
competitions.

But was this really a one-person movie with four others acting as assistant
camera-people?

As you mention the director often gets the award for a commercial movie when
that is almost always the result of a great many talented people cooperating.
In fact the Oscars goes further and gives the Best Film award to the Producers
whose main role is to find the money. Their creative input may be little
more than choosing the director and team.

I don't think it would be practical to have separate comps for "one person
movies" - but maybe others disagree.

On the original question I raised Ian commented:
So I would have disqualified him because all he did was capture the slides
and put them to music.
And this is at the heart of my dilemma. If we are judging the film maker's
skills then that movie does not give much evidence of them. But taken as
a whole the film was attractive, possibly a little long. If someone made
a film showing steam locomotives, hot air balloons or even the same scenery
shot live - would we worry that he or she had not built those locos / balloons
/ scenery?

Dave
Ian Gardner

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Ian Gardner »

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
"Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
... about two issues relating to how a film / film maker is judged.

It does seem odd to enter a movie made as "a club film" in one of that club's
own competitions. It seems more appropriate to send that to regional or
national
competitions.
I agree.
But was this really a one-person movie with four others acting as assistant
camera-people?
We get letters from organisations who would like us to film their place.
In this case (this was so). So may-be a one person movie but 4 other quality
member assistants. Still better to put into the nationals.
I don't think it would be practical to have separate comps for "one person
movies" - but maybe others disagree.
I mean`t a seperate comp for multi-person help. This would include club films
just like interclub comps.
On the original question I raised Ian commented:
So I would have disqualified him because all he did was capture the slides
and put them to music.

And this is at the heart of my dilemma. If we are judging the film maker's
skills then that movie does not give much evidence of them. But taken as
a whole the film was attractive, possibly a little long. If someone made
a film showing steam locomotives, hot air balloons or even the same scenery
shot live - would we worry that he or she had not built those locos / balloons
/ scenery?
No. I think thats different. That would be like saying that you have to build
your own video camera!.
In my view at club level and maybe the nationals. A film should be called
an ameature film when a person has done most of the work. If you were going
into a national film comp then club films and single person films would be
ok. At club level only for one man band.
Sometimes I lose winable arguments because I don`t explain things properly!
or people think `werdo` and loose interest.
What do others think?

I do like discussions like this. It keeps our brains active on our hobby.
Keep them coming david!

Ian Gardner
Ned C

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Ned C »

I think there are two issues here, first, are stills set to music/commentary
a film? Absolutely, yes. Here in the USA Ken Burns has made a series of documentaries
on subjects as diverse as the Civil War and Jazz using only stills, music
and narration. The second question is who is the "author" of the work? The
person(s) who took the parts and put them together to create a new work.
I have to do some work of my own now so will expand later!

Ned C





Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I do like discussions like this. It keeps our brains active on our hobby.
Keep them coming david!

Ian Gardner
Ned C

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Ned C »

Part 2

If you want to see a story film made up entirely of stills try and track
down "La Jetee", it's OK the narration is in English and "La Pupee" which
is a parody/hommage to "La Jetee". Both of these are deceptively simple and
the technique is available to all of us, but perhaps not the creativity.

When I first joined a "cine club" it was divided up into film units each
made up of 3 or 4 members which made it possible to have intra club competitions
between the units as well as between individuals. It was also a great way
of learning and being a part of a "crew". Worked very well.

Now for the "author" of a film. A true story, a complete beginner had a good
idea and went out and shot loads of stuff but couldn't edit it so found a
friendly amateur with an edit suite who then using the shooters notes and
the mountain of stuff he had shot selected music, rewrote the voice over
and recorded it and edited a super film. The beginner won several awards,
the editor was furious and complained. Strictly the editor should have had
a shared credit but the beginner insisted it was "his film", not the editor's.
What would you do?

Walter Murch. What does that name mean to you? He is just one of the world's
greatest editors but the films he edits are never referred to as "A FIlm
by Walter Murch", his name appears in the credits as Edited by.........

Producers earn their awards. Believe me!

Ned C





Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I do like discussions like this. It keeps our brains active on our hobby.
Keep them coming david!

Ian Gardner
Fraught

Re: Judge the film or the film maker?

Post by Fraught »

Just going off on a small tangent... the film "La Jetee" is a great flick,
and the Terry Gilliam film "12 Monkeys" is actually based on it. If you want
to see it, it may actually be available on the Special Edition DVD of '12
Monkeys' ... i'll check that out. :-)



"Ned C" <ned@swamp.com> wrote:
Part 2

If you want to see a story film made up entirely of stills try and track
down "La Jetee", it's OK the narration is in English and "La Pupee" which
is a parody/hommage to "La Jetee". Both of these are deceptively simple
and
the technique is available to all of us, but perhaps not the creativity.

When I first joined a "cine club" it was divided up into film units each
made up of 3 or 4 members which made it possible to have intra club competitions
between the units as well as between individuals. It was also a great way
of learning and being a part of a "crew". Worked very well.

Now for the "author" of a film. A true story, a complete beginner had a
good
idea and went out and shot loads of stuff but couldn't edit it so found
a
friendly amateur with an edit suite who then using the shooters notes and
the mountain of stuff he had shot selected music, rewrote the voice over
and recorded it and edited a super film. The beginner won several awards,
the editor was furious and complained. Strictly the editor should have had
a shared credit but the beginner insisted it was "his film", not the editor's.
What would you do?

Walter Murch. What does that name mean to you? He is just one of the world's
greatest editors but the films he edits are never referred to as "A FIlm
by Walter Murch", his name appears in the credits as Edited by.........

Producers earn their awards. Believe me!

Ned C







Ian Gardner" <ian@gardner44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I do like discussions like this. It keeps our brains active on our hobby.
Keep them coming david!

Ian Gardner

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