Hi to all. I thought that it was time that we started on a new line of discussion
so I wanted your thoughts on endings.
Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that in fiction, there are, broadly
speaking, only 3 different types of endings. I have now realised that there
is a fourth. These would be:
A happy ending.
An unhappy ending.
An ending which has elements of both of the previous two.
Open ending, where the audience makes it`s own mind up what happens next.
This became a dilemma a few years back, as I do like to try and give the
audience a surprise twist at the end. But, how many "surprise twists" can
you come up with when the viewer expects one of these four possible endings?
In a who-done-it for example, where our hero has been arrested for murder,
he is either guilty, innocent, or we are never told either way. In this case,
only 3 possible alternatives. (It could be possible for the fourth choice,
he is a little bit guilty! But unlikely.)
In documentaries (or animation etc) we don`t need to come to ANY conclusion
at all. Just tell your story.
My thoughts: Feel sorry for the fiction film maker.
Ken.
Endings
-
Dave Watterson
Re: Endings
First - let's not let documentary / animation etc off the hook.
The best of those also have a structure which should lead to an
ending of some sort ...
Second - I agree there are limited endings for fiction, just as
there are limited plots. You can, however, shade those endings
to give many variations.
For example the ending (whatever it is) may be upbeat or downbeat.
Think of a hero policeman reluctant doing his duty investigating
a friend's activities. Failing to find the friend guilty may be
an upbeat result in that case.
In action movies the shading often comes from the flourish with
which the end is achieved ... James Bond's gadgets and ingenuity
work in ways we don't anticipate though we never doubt he will
succeed.
A million yonks ago someone told me that make-up artists split
the entire human race into "bun face" and "horse face" types.
Then they consider whether the complexion is light or dark.
You can continue such broad categorisations for a while and find
that a limited number of options apply.
Yet those limited options give us the diversity that is humanity
as we see it all around us.
Dave (wearing very old make-up) McWatterson
The best of those also have a structure which should lead to an
ending of some sort ...
Second - I agree there are limited endings for fiction, just as
there are limited plots. You can, however, shade those endings
to give many variations.
For example the ending (whatever it is) may be upbeat or downbeat.
Think of a hero policeman reluctant doing his duty investigating
a friend's activities. Failing to find the friend guilty may be
an upbeat result in that case.
In action movies the shading often comes from the flourish with
which the end is achieved ... James Bond's gadgets and ingenuity
work in ways we don't anticipate though we never doubt he will
succeed.
A million yonks ago someone told me that make-up artists split
the entire human race into "bun face" and "horse face" types.
Then they consider whether the complexion is light or dark.
You can continue such broad categorisations for a while and find
that a limited number of options apply.
Yet those limited options give us the diversity that is humanity
as we see it all around us.
Dave (wearing very old make-up) McWatterson
-
Atta Chui
Re: Endings
I read a piece of advice on short film recently: don't put a twist in the
end if it has nothing to do with the theme. A film needs surprises to keep
audience engaged. An unnecessary twist at the end, however, can damage the
creditability of the movie. (it goes something like: well, you are the director,
you can do whatever you like...)
On a longer film, the journey to the end are often more interesting than
the ending itself. Because if you only care about the ending, you can forward
the video tape to the end, it's either he dies or he does not.
On a short film, it starts with a strong opening, develops to a decisive
point, then a powerful ending concludes it. All these different bits are
put together as a single piece. The right ending is driven by the theme.
If we take the ending out of context and ask how we can put a twist in and
sex it up... well, it may not work very well.
It's like a magic show. The fun is the process itself. Everyone knows the
girl is not going to be cut into two halves. Well, actually this is not a
good analogy because I am bored by this kind of magic...
Atta
end if it has nothing to do with the theme. A film needs surprises to keep
audience engaged. An unnecessary twist at the end, however, can damage the
creditability of the movie. (it goes something like: well, you are the director,
you can do whatever you like...)
On a longer film, the journey to the end are often more interesting than
the ending itself. Because if you only care about the ending, you can forward
the video tape to the end, it's either he dies or he does not.
On a short film, it starts with a strong opening, develops to a decisive
point, then a powerful ending concludes it. All these different bits are
put together as a single piece. The right ending is driven by the theme.
If we take the ending out of context and ask how we can put a twist in and
sex it up... well, it may not work very well.
It's like a magic show. The fun is the process itself. Everyone knows the
girl is not going to be cut into two halves. Well, actually this is not a
good analogy because I am bored by this kind of magic...
Atta
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: Endings
Somewhere around the dawn of life nature, for whatever reason, decided that
the simplist way forward was to start with two individual types which would
create a newer third version. As this turned out to be not enough nature
made sure that the first two had a few more versions made because the new
versions had to make new versions again the same way as the first ever two.
So from these incestuous beginings the future looked as if the basic format
would not change and indeed, like the backward nature of local politics,
it hasn't budged an inch from the devine master plan. So much so that it
could well be the end for all of us.
In all things you can only start with two elements. The multiplication tables
don't make good reading in 'one times one equals one, etc. Real multiplication
begins at the most basic level of two. You can't have one without the other
and without two you could not have a third and so on. Whatever way you play
the maths you will always come to a number around three and no less than
two (Monty Python's Holy Grail covers the counting of 3).
You will know many hundreds of people in a lifetime on very good terms but
can count your true friends on the fingers of one hand with the other hand
dedicated to true enemies.
When we build a picture we build a balance as an architect might build balance
into a structure, most important if it is to support the weight of all the
above.
If you're looking to create an interesting ending it helps if your story
is part of something bigger. In some way, shape or form CFT films are produced
to be part of a running history even though on the face of it there might
be no aparent link between two different stories. It's like dropping in on
various parts of a family tree at different times in history. The options
are good but one thing remains, it all starts with 'two' leading to three.
the simplist way forward was to start with two individual types which would
create a newer third version. As this turned out to be not enough nature
made sure that the first two had a few more versions made because the new
versions had to make new versions again the same way as the first ever two.
So from these incestuous beginings the future looked as if the basic format
would not change and indeed, like the backward nature of local politics,
it hasn't budged an inch from the devine master plan. So much so that it
could well be the end for all of us.
In all things you can only start with two elements. The multiplication tables
don't make good reading in 'one times one equals one, etc. Real multiplication
begins at the most basic level of two. You can't have one without the other
and without two you could not have a third and so on. Whatever way you play
the maths you will always come to a number around three and no less than
two (Monty Python's Holy Grail covers the counting of 3).
You will know many hundreds of people in a lifetime on very good terms but
can count your true friends on the fingers of one hand with the other hand
dedicated to true enemies.
When we build a picture we build a balance as an architect might build balance
into a structure, most important if it is to support the weight of all the
above.
If you're looking to create an interesting ending it helps if your story
is part of something bigger. In some way, shape or form CFT films are produced
to be part of a running history even though on the face of it there might
be no aparent link between two different stories. It's like dropping in on
various parts of a family tree at different times in history. The options
are good but one thing remains, it all starts with 'two' leading to three.
-
Dave Watterson
Re: Endings & Beginnings
"Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
The ideas are complicated - and expressed poetically - but as I
understand them in the way they apply to stories:
1. One element on its own is dull.
2. Add a second element and you allow for interaction
- life gets interesting.
3. Increase the number of elements, thereby increasing
the complexity and you get more elaborate plot
possibilities.
BUT
4. We can only handle a limited number of possibilities fully.
Thus we have a handful of real friends, a handful of real
enemies and lots more acquaintances who are present but
make less impact on our lives.
5. If we structure our stories with these things in mind, we focus
on a small number of elements interacting but keep reminding the
audience that they are part of a greater whole.
So if your hero and heroine have a fight, the cause of their row
might reflect a wider problem in society - to take one example.
In that case the audience not only has the usual sympathy with the
characters concerned, but will also be aware of their own stance on
the wider issue.
In a more vague way I usually speak of adding richness to a movie by
using every method of engaging the audience and enhancing their experience.
e.g. associate a musical theme with each character, associate a colour
with each character, associate a style of speech with each character,
associate a style of dress with each character etc etc etc The effect of
which is to establish those characters within society.
Which comes back to the question of endings ...
The more you make the audience aware of how your characters fit into
the society around them, the more resonance your ending will have.
Dave (Brain Overheating) McWatterson
The ideas are complicated - and expressed poetically - but as I
understand them in the way they apply to stories:
1. One element on its own is dull.
2. Add a second element and you allow for interaction
- life gets interesting.
3. Increase the number of elements, thereby increasing
the complexity and you get more elaborate plot
possibilities.
BUT
4. We can only handle a limited number of possibilities fully.
Thus we have a handful of real friends, a handful of real
enemies and lots more acquaintances who are present but
make less impact on our lives.
5. If we structure our stories with these things in mind, we focus
on a small number of elements interacting but keep reminding the
audience that they are part of a greater whole.
So if your hero and heroine have a fight, the cause of their row
might reflect a wider problem in society - to take one example.
In that case the audience not only has the usual sympathy with the
characters concerned, but will also be aware of their own stance on
the wider issue.
In a more vague way I usually speak of adding richness to a movie by
using every method of engaging the audience and enhancing their experience.
e.g. associate a musical theme with each character, associate a colour
with each character, associate a style of speech with each character,
associate a style of dress with each character etc etc etc The effect of
which is to establish those characters within society.
Which comes back to the question of endings ...
The more you make the audience aware of how your characters fit into
the society around them, the more resonance your ending will have.
Dave (Brain Overheating) McWatterson
-
Ken Wilson
Re: Endings & Beginnings
"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Ken.
And me a headache."Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
Ken.
-
AN
Re: Endings & Beginnings
"Ken Wilson" <@phase4.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
for a tragic ending!!!
Albert.....clear headed.
Take one Aspro for a happy ending then and 200 Aspro"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
"Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
And me a headache.
Ken.
for a tragic ending!!!
Albert.....clear headed.
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: Endings & Beginnings
Well done Albert, you snappy little problem solver you! Hows about 75 Aspro"Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
And me a headache.
Ken.
Take one Aspro for a happy ending then and 200 Aspro
for a tragic ending!!!
Albert.....clear headed.
for a possible sequel with options for TV rights?
When it comes to ideas for film I usually start with some source of inspiration
that has come out of life in general and how it translates to my place within
Caithness (is that too deep).
Well anyway I grew up at a time when there was a lot of bits of history
still around on the surface particularly wartime. Between that and having
a step-grandad who told wonderful stories about all kinds of things real
and imagined I was off to a good start. Living in a county with more archeological
sites per square mile than any other part of the UK means I'm living in a
land steeped in a mysterious history and for my childhood imagination (and
adult)that creates wonderful possabilities. Show me a ruined croft, I'll
tell you a story about a possible life there, show me a castle or broch,
show me the land and here is a world to be created. Give me a family tree
and I'll start putting them into lives unlived, adventures unknown and give
me music! Music will bring color to the screen telling the story without
words but creating images which cannot be written. Have you got the eyes
of a child or an adult?
My current project, "The Bilbster Adventure" is based on an apparently true
event but which only took a matter of seconds, a little short to bring to
the screen. So the whole thing was expanded by the choice of music. The Firebird
Suite is so familiar but yet it is the right choice to expand the story and
flesh out the detail as our hero fights the magic of the fairies and tries
to get back to reality. You've got to be brave or foolhardy to use familiar
music but whatever you choose music is a language that can give you the missing
details you need to fill the screen. When I write a story it is after consideration
of the bits of ideas which are noted first. The ideas give suggestion to
music that might work and I take the notes into my cinema and put the music
on. As it plays it puts up pictures in the mind that fill out the story.
I have a big story in mind which is going through this process now and without
any script written as yet I have about 45 minutes sorted out in my head with
a lot of whys and wherefors all in order.
Music isn't just there for background, it's very much part of telling the
story.
-
Dave Watterson
Re: Endings & Beginnings
Does the speed of an ending make a difference?
I mean, if it arrives too suddenly there is a danger
that it seems out of keeping with the story. ("Looks
as if they ran out of time/budget.")
If you have a long aftermath it may dilute the impact
of an ending ... though I could imagine cases where
that might still be appropriate.
One case struck me at the last UNICA ... a lovely
cartoon told the story of why dragons are extinct ...
basically they overslept and missed the ark. It is
beautifully done - so much so that there is a really
poignant ending and you feel saddened.
Then as the credits start the director slips in a
postscript "explaining what happened to the unicorn"
which should be just as tragic but is quick and funny.
It takes the edge off the sadness.
Dave (just petering out ......) McWatterson
I mean, if it arrives too suddenly there is a danger
that it seems out of keeping with the story. ("Looks
as if they ran out of time/budget.")
If you have a long aftermath it may dilute the impact
of an ending ... though I could imagine cases where
that might still be appropriate.
One case struck me at the last UNICA ... a lovely
cartoon told the story of why dragons are extinct ...
basically they overslept and missed the ark. It is
beautifully done - so much so that there is a really
poignant ending and you feel saddened.
Then as the credits start the director slips in a
postscript "explaining what happened to the unicorn"
which should be just as tragic but is quick and funny.
It takes the edge off the sadness.
Dave (just petering out ......) McWatterson
-
AN
Re: Endings & Beginnings
"Cinema For Thurso Group" <canuimagine@btopenworld.com> wrote:
75 Ibuprofen. This may lead to irreversible kidney damage (a posssible
sad ending), but just in the nick of time a friend dies and becomes
a kidney donor and hero has his transplant op. (happy ending)
Albert...."Here endeth the first lesion !"
Sequels are not always successful. So to add extra variety I suggest"Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
And me a headache.
Ken.
Take one Aspro for a happy ending then and 200 Aspro
for a tragic ending!!!
Albert.....clear headed.
Well done Albert, you snappy little problem solver you! Hows about 75 Aspro
for a possible sequel with options for TV rights?
75 Ibuprofen. This may lead to irreversible kidney damage (a posssible
sad ending), but just in the nick of time a friend dies and becomes
a kidney donor and hero has his transplant op. (happy ending)
Albert...."Here endeth the first lesion !"
-
AN
Poetic UK? Seldom!
"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Tell me I'm wrong, Dave.
What a truly delightful idea. Why don't we in UK seldom
make these delicate, poetic films? Fairy stories with a touch
of whimsey. Poems on film.
Little chords to pluck at the heart strings.
Albert.....heart broken.
Ah, that sounds SO much like a poetic film not made in the UK.One case struck me at the last UNICA ... a lovely
cartoon told the story of why dragons are extinct ...
basically they overslept and missed the ark. It is
beautifully done - so much so that there is a really
poignant ending and you feel saddened.
Then as the credits start the director slips in a
postscript "explaining what happened to the unicorn"
which should be just as tragic but is quick and funny.
It takes the edge off the sadness.
Tell me I'm wrong, Dave.
What a truly delightful idea. Why don't we in UK seldom
make these delicate, poetic films? Fairy stories with a touch
of whimsey. Poems on film.
Little chords to pluck at the heart strings.
Albert.....heart broken.
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: Endings & Beginnings
"AN" <AnimatioN@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
COMING SOON- "The Evil Kidney- prequel to Ibuprofen alergy""Cinema For Thurso Group" <canuimagine@btopenworld.com> wrote:
"Cinema For Thurso Group" has given us food for thought.
And me a headache.
Ken.
Take one Aspro for a happy ending then and 200 Aspro
for a tragic ending!!!
Albert.....clear headed.
Well done Albert, you snappy little problem solver you! Hows about 75 Aspro
for a possible sequel with options for TV rights?
Sequels are not always successful. So to add extra variety I suggest
75 Ibuprofen. This may lead to irreversible kidney damage (a posssible
sad ending), but just in the nick of time a friend dies and becomes
a kidney donor and hero has his transplant op. (happy ending)
Albert...."Here endeth the first lesion !"
Just as the titles start to role a diluded revolutionary student who failed
biology dashes in and stabs the new kidney mistaking it for a vampire!
>
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: Poetic UK? Seldom!
Raise up your heart to great cheer to find that "The Bilbster Adventure"What a truly delightful idea. Why don't we in UK seldom
make these delicate, poetic films? Fairy stories with a touch
of whimsey. Poems on film.
Little chords to pluck at the heart strings.
is about an aparently true Fairy story and just this evening I found an excellent
track to tell another tale of Fairy encounter. It sure is lucky I started
making 65mm PIPs for all these special effect that are needed. But you will
have to wait until some time next year before it's all finished.
Effects- perhaps that's why no-one except me is doing the fantasy genre.
-
Cinema For Thurso Group
Re: Return Of The King- ending
Well who saw it then. It's a long one and many said it went on a bit but really
it was essential to finish off such a big story and man did I cry. The kids
finished the popcorn and I refilled their bucket!
it was essential to finish off such a big story and man did I cry. The kids
finished the popcorn and I refilled their bucket!