TURN TURN TURN

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Dave Watterson
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TURN TURN TURN

Post by Dave Watterson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Shooting with my phone, I started in the portrait mode, since I find it easier to access the controls that way. Then, of course, I turned to horizontal for shooting the scene.

When loaded the clip into my editor (currently Movie Studio Platinum 13) the clip was all portrait format with a black frame around it.
I could turn the picture 90-degrees in the "properties", but that moved the image, not the black frame. I now had a postage-stamp image with a lot of black around it.

I had had a similar problem with someone else's film, which was masked to a Cinemascope style aspect ratio. To add subtltles I hoped to simply move the image up and write titles in the large black border below. Same problem. The image moved, the frame did not.

Any ideas / clues / recommendations?

John Roberts
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by John Roberts » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:41 pm

The only thing I can think of Dave is that commencing recording in portrait mode and then turning the phone sideways, still results in a recording in portrait format. It would be a similar (but opposite) result with any camcorder/DSLR if you decided to film in portrait mode - the clip would be imported as landscape because that's what the data associated with the clip tells the editor it is.

I'm assuming that data tagged on the clip by the phone would include the format the clip commenced filming in (portrait or landscape) but that would remain the same for the length of the clip.

If you select the clip's 'Event Pan/Crop' attributes on the timeline, there are sometimes options such as '16:9, 4:3, 1:1' etc in the presets pulldown menu which might help, and of course you can try rotating and cropping the clip there as well. I almost always use the Pan/Crop window for this. Of course, cropping in is going to result in a major quality loss because you are stretching the pixels from the 'wrong' orientation too much to try and get rid of the black surround.

Hope this helps but I can delve deeper into MS if you want any other ideas?

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TimStannard
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by TimStannard » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:32 pm

This is not a straightforward as at first we might think (as Dave has discovered). The problem with Pan and Crop is that the rotation has a different effect depending on how "Stretch to fill frame" is set. If "Yes" then the image rotates, but within the crop edges of the original image. If "No" then the crop edges are moved and the image remains in its original orientation. We need to do both but we can't!(In Vegas Pro we have the additional capability to rotate at track level, but as I've demonstrated on previous occasions, this would result in a loss of resolution)

What we need to do is both - or rather rotate the original image before any P&C is applied.

Fortunately there is a way - and it's so simple I'd never spotted it before.

Right click on the event on the timeline and select Properties.
Go to the Media tab
Change the value for Rotation
Job done!
Tim
Proud to be an amateur film maker - I do it for the love of it

John Roberts
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by John Roberts » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:42 pm

TimStannard wrote:Right click on the event on the timeline and select Properties.
Go to the Media tab
Change the value for Rotation
Job done!
Is that not what Dave said he'd done, Tim? Also MS12 does appear to have the ability to rotate at track level - I've certainly done this many times with my animations.

I've just shot some footage with my phone in the same way as I assume Dave did: started in portrait mode and then turned the camera 90 degrees to continue filming in landscape orientation. On the phone this plays back fine in landscape mode as is to be expected, but on the PC and in MS12 it plays back in portrait mode. I have managed to turn the footage to the correct orientation in MS12 without too many issues and with no quality loss:

1) I imported the footage to the timeline, then under Properties > Media for the clip I rotated the clip 0 degrees! This rotated the footage 90 degrees into landscape mode at full resolution and full screen. If I rotated the clip 90 degrees then it actually rotated it 180 degrees. I admit, this might be an anomaly.

2) But here's how I usually do it: I imported the footage to the timeline again, then under Event Pan/Crop for the clip I set the Preset pull down menu to 16:9 widescreen, rotated the clip 90 degrees, then reset the X and Y dimensions to 1920 x 1080. This again resulted in a full resolution full screen widescreen clip.The key here is the resetting of the format to 16:9, otherwise the image would rotate but retain the original portrait mode 'black border' and look like Dave's postage stamp!

All 3 clips look identical when played back full screen, with the absolute tiniest re-render quality loss from those created in MS12, but if you didn't do a side-by-side comparison you wouldn't be able to tell. I played back the original portrait mode footage by rotating the video card output 90 degrees so that it played in landscape format, for comparison.

Hope this helps :D

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TimStannard
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by TimStannard » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:33 pm

John Roberts wrote:
TimStannard wrote:Right click on the event on the timeline and select Properties.
Go to the Media tab
Change the value for Rotation
Job done!
Is that not what Dave said he'd done, Tim? Also MS12 does appear to have the ability to rotate at track level - I've certainly done this many times with my animations.
Doh! Somehow I was reading too much into it and looked beyond that. However changing rotation for the media works (at least in VP13)

I did exactly the same as you (ie what we imagined Dave had done) by shooting some footage vertical then turning the phone to horizontal.

I created a new 1920 x 1080 project

Upon importing (don't change the project properties to match the media), Media Properties already showed 90degrees.
I changed to this 0 degrees and all was fine. No need to touch pan & crop, it shows 1920 x 1080 just fine.

Job done.

John, I tried your usual method, method 2 and it produces the same result, as you'd expect, however it must do it differently. Using my method above the image in the P&C window displays in landscape, using your method the image in the P&C window is portrait. So there is some difference.

My inner geek getting the better of me, I rendered out a 2min clip using both methods.
Rotating Media: 3:36, 3:36, 3:41, 3:39
P&C: 3:53, 3:54, 3:52, 3:54

So a slight advantage to rotating media - but the point is not how much faster it renders, just an indication that the PC is doing less work (and maybe, but by no means necessarily, affecting the original pixels less)

FWIW and for comparison dropping the "vertical" clip into a 1920x1080 timeline and rendering that gave a result of 2:47, so the rotation is clearly causing some processing to go on.
Tim
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John Roberts
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by John Roberts » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:12 pm

Hi Tim, I noticed the same thing - i.e. a slight change in picture ratio although I believe it was only one or two pixels out.

Like you, I didn't even know about the quick rotation method under 'properties' as I've always been used to changing it under Pan/Crop. We could speculate all day as to why the two methods produce slightly different rendering times, perhaps it's because Pan/Crop allows fractions of a degree rotation and maybe uses a different method of interpolation and possibly antialiasing than a simple remapping of pixels in 90 degree increments under Properties?

I mentioned my usual method - method 2 - because it appears that Dave is having issues with rotating the media under Properties. Perhaps it might be possible to set the picture ratio to 16:9 under Pan/Crop to this already rotated clip and see what happens?

If it doesn't work, I suggest Dave re-imports the clip and tries setting the rotation to '0' under Properties, and if that doesn't work then try my second method.

It's been good to talk! :D

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TimStannard
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by TimStannard » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:47 pm

One other thought - Dave, I presume your project properties are set to 1920 x 1080 and you're selecting "No" when you drop your first clip onto the timeline.
Tim
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Dave Watterson
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by Dave Watterson » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:59 pm

John and Tim - umpteen thanks. Both your techniques worked for me. And you showed me more of the power of this editing system. There is so much hidden away that is downright excllent ... once you have found it.

I am resolved to start any future phone filming with the phone horizontal ...

Now I just have to take the time and patience to edit things properly.

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TimStannard
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by TimStannard » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:41 am

It's always a pleasure to help, Dave. I usually learn something myself so it's not entirely altruistic!
Tim
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John Roberts
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by John Roberts » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:51 pm

Likewise, Dave - always a pleasure to help :D

tom hardwick
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by tom hardwick » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:45 am

To come back to the first point raised .. yes, commencing a video shoot using the phone in portrait mode means however you twist and turn the phone from that point on the orientation stays in portrait mode. It allows you to Dutch tilt to extremes without the aspect ratio changing.

Michael Slowe
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by Michael Slowe » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Dear Dave, get a 'proper' camera and you'll have no problems!

Good to hear that you are going to start filming, you're such a good judge and I'm sure your films would be great.

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Dave Watterson
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Re: TURN TURN TURN

Post by Dave Watterson » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:09 pm

Kind thought, Michael, but I am not sure I have the patience to work hard enough at making good movies. I do indeed have a proper camcorder, but also like to use the phone for odd pics and clips since it is usually in my pocket ... often playing me music from Radio 3 or talk from Radio 4 while I walk.

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