DVD burners

[Ian Woodward]

Is there anything inside a DVD burner that needs “cleaning” from time to time, in the same way as a DVD player needs the periodic use of a lens cleaner?

If so, are such cleaners available for DVD burners?

The gist of my query is: Does the capacity of a DVD burner to produce Best Quality deteriorate over time and reach a point where the result, when played, is clearly not Best Quality?

I ask because I’ve noticed that my own home-burned DVDs seem to have lost a certain clarity and sharpness in recent months.

I use an LG 18x External Super MultiDVD writer, on which I’ve burned many hundreds of DVDs since I bought it three years ago.

I did a controlled test last week. I compared the images of two specific SD scenes lasting one minute in total:
1. viewed on the TV screen with the Best Quality-burned DVD,
2. viewed on the TV screen straight from the camera.

Result: 2. was crisper all round.

Any advice on how to restore the former quality of burned DVDs would be welcome.

Ian Woodward

[tom hardwick]

If your burner has done well for a few years think on this:

DVR-A1L BK 22x Pioneer Drive (£17-49 Incl. VAT) from Amazon.
Free delivery. Bundled with Nero 9 Essentials.

How's that for a deal? And how can anything costing so little (remember nearly 1/5th of that is tax) be any good at all, let alone any good at burning 128 000 000 pits in a spinning 10p disc every second (8mbps x 16x write speed).

But to your query Ian. Best quality from a DVD is most probably 8mbps, yet your camera (you don't tell us what it is, what format you're recording in or whether it's SD, HDV or HD) can easily be recording at 35mbps.

Even if we're talking 720 x 576 DV, remember that an hour occupies 13gb, whereas the DVD puts an hour into 4.3gb. That's an awful lot of information (picture quality) to jettison.

tom.

[Ian Woodward]

Thanks Tom.

My camera's a Canon XL2, and I record in SD, 16:9.

Ian

[Ian Woodward]

Tom, I forgot to ask - what brand/type of burner do you recommend in terms of getting professional quality: that is, the sort professionals might use?

Ian

[leif]

I allways stick the same brand and type of blanc media. Price does not necessarily reflect quality.
I prefer Tayo Yuden - mostly DVD-R. They also perform fine as production masters for mass duplication.
Many of the DVD's offered in the retail stores are unreliable - also when they are sold under well known brand names,

No doubt the dvd authoring and burning software is important My personal experience is with Magix (various versions) and Corel (former Ulead) DVD Movie Factory. I find these 100 % reliable.
Many/most other softwares will also function to your satisfaction, But I have no experience with these.

Mpeg2-codecs are not equal. But it is rather difficult to asses which one is the best, and when you go for burner program, you are stuck with the codec chosen by the manufacturer. So we must just hope for a good choice.
The settings are most important to the result. For encoding of the final master, always select the highest quality level - and not the default settings. The encoding will take much more processing time, but it is worth waiting for. It is clearly visible in the final result.

Most of us live in polluted atmosphere, so the lens of a dvd burner is likely to get dirty over time. To clean the lens you can - in my opinion - use one of the usual lens-cleaners for dvd-players. But I agree, that exchange of the dvd burner is a low cost worth considering, if you are keen about your work.

[Ian Woodward]

Many thanks, Leif, for your full and helpful reply.

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of the DVD brand Taiyo Yuden prior to hearing from you!

I've always sworn by Verbatim, both 4.7GM and 8.5GB DL, and until now I've had no good reason to doubt my choice.

My quality problem could well be due to a burner with a dirty lens; but, after more than three years of extensive use, maybe now's the time to buy a new one.

But what burner to buy (one that will give professional-standards result) is the burning question - pun intended!

I'm not too fussed about the price, as long as the price paid is worth it in terms of the burned DVD's impeccable quality when screened.

Any suggestions, Leif - or anyone else?

Ian

[tom hardwick]

Professional disc burners are generally tower cases fitted with 7 or so DVD/BD writers. There's no point in paying a penny more than Pioneer are asking, you won't get any more 'professional' results.

OK, so your XL2 is recording DV, 720 x 576 in 16:9. DV is already compressed at about 5:1 (it varies slightly) as if not a MiniDV tape would only run for 12 minutes. So you're replaying the tape into your TV and switching to the DVD of the same footage in an A/B comparison? You're asking a lot if you expect the even more highly compressed DVD to look as good as the master tape, as this already compressed information (DV) is compressed yet again to make the DVD, and compression on top of compression is never a good thing.

It's a reflection of where we've come to though. We can shoot with an 11 year old TRV900, say, burn this footage to a 10p DVD, upscale this via HDMI into a 1880p TV and sit in front of a 50'' plasma and glow in the results.

So I'd vote with Leif. I'd say that it was your MPEG2 encoder that was degrading your DVD experience. A no-name DVD blank will give exactly the same picture and sound quality as an expensive Taiyo Yuden - they both hold a bit-stream of millions of pits. The TY might well last longer though before the dye fades and the substrate parts from the lacquer.

So what encoder are you using to compress your timeline to MPEG2 Ian? Is it doing a multi-pass encode or a real-time zip through? Are you selecting a VBR or a CBR when you encode? This is where big changes can be effected. I use a Canopus encoder with which I'm well pleased, though it doesn't do multi-pass. Michael Slowe does multi-pass with his BitVice encoder http://www.innobits.com/bitvice.html

tom.

[Ian Woodward]

Thanks, Tom.

Your last paragraph: “So what encoder are you using to compress your timeline to MPEG2 Ian? Is it doing a multi-pass encode or a real-time zip through? Are you selecting a VBR or a CBR when you encode? This is where big changes can be effected. I use a Canopus encoder with which I'm well pleased, though it doesn't do multi-pass.”

I’ll come clean: I have absolutely no idea what all this means!

I’m a keen amateur. I’m not particularly well versed in technical jargon. My interest in making video films is the scope it offers for creativity; and, in my case at least, for better or for worse, this must take precedent over technical ability.

Burner. You mention the name Pioneer. Is there any particular model you can recommend?

Ian

[leif]

There is an article explaining many details about dvd quality here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm
Allways go for 1st class media.

The main difference between media lies in the number of dropouts. Up to a certain limit the dvd-player will add missing bits, so it will play. Best media range far below the limit. some other media get close to the limit. When the limit is passed you get no or disturbed image/audio.

To read the MediaCode of your blank media, you need a softwareprogram like DVD-Identifier (downloadable from: [url]http://dvd.identifier.cdfreaks.com/[/url]).

Re: burners:
Plextor is in my opinion a very good and reliable (expensive) brand. Some of their models are delivered with a large software package including programs for full quality testing of blank media (very impressive statistics/very time consuming)
Sony, Samsung, LG, Pioneer etc. are generally OK - stay with the well known brands. Buy this years model - not the bargain of last years model.
Since all dvd units are produced in very few factories ( 1 or 2 as far as I remember) I believe the difference between brands is in the software and visual differences.

[col lamb]

Branded Pioneer, LG etc. My original Pioneer is still going strong and still functioning the same as when installed but its role has been superseeded by the LG Blu Ray burner. If you are going to change drive then do remember that the current crop are SATA and not IDE

Try running a cleaner in the existing drive and also seeing if updated Firmware is available, you may find that doing both actions improves

Upgrading editing or encoding software can introduce changes to the settings of the inbuilt MPEG encoder presets, always best to check settings.

I've seen hundreds of very badly encoded DVD's, primarily because they person pressing the buttons does not know any better

Main Concept and Canopus are excellent encoders, but by altering some settings the results can be better.

In producing DVD's I generally used VBR with a Max of 8.5 and a Min of 4.0 trying to average about 6.5. These settings limit the duration of movie(s) but offers the best quality. Two pass will also introduce better error checking and a more robust disk.

In a last gasp effort to get it through the heads of my club members I encoded the same sequence of clips with a total sequence duration of about 20 seconds at different settings with both CBR, VBR and two pass, the quality difference was tremendous. So guys and gals, play around with the settings and see the results. You do not have to burn a DVD just make the MPG files. Use source footage with plenty of detail and also a section of fast movement.

[Dave Watterson]

Baffled yet, Ian?

First: I think Tom's reference to Pioneer was just to the example of the DVR-A1L BK 22x Pioneer Drive (£17-49 Incl. VAT) from Amazon. (Free delivery. Bundled with Nero 9 Essentials.) which he mentioned earlier in the thread as an example of how cheaply you can replace an old DVD burner.

Second: Taiyo Yuden discs are prized because they come from the company which invented the first recordable CDs and hence have a lead in all subsequent development of the technology. There is a helpful article about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyo_Yuden which also explains the brand names they use and the risk of getting fake ones ...

Third: all that jargon!

Video has to be compressed to fit on a DVD. The standard type of compression is called MPEG2 (the second format agreed by the "Motion Picture Experts Group"). The encoder is the software tool which does the compression. It is usually built-in to whatever video editing system you use, but it may be part of a separate software package like the Canopus Procoder. Some encoders do a better job than others - and I suspect that, as usual, the more it costs the better it probably is.

Some encoders can compress the video and send it to DVD in "real time" - that is as fast as the video plays. Most cannot work that quickly. Many offer a choice of methods in which there is a trade-off between speed and quality. For your purposes don't worry about the speed - if it takes an hour or two to encode your movie so what? You only need to do that once - for additional discs you can just copy the first one.

CBR means "Constant Bit Rate" - that is the encoder treats every second of your movie in the same way. Most burner programs offer different speeds of CBR - the one marked "8Mb" or "8 Megabytes" is the best of them. On some systems it may not give figures but be marked "better" and "best" etc ... guess which you should choose! The possible catch is that the better the quality, the less minutes of movie you can get on a disc. Unless your movies tend to be feature length, you will have no problems.

VBR means "Variable Bit Rate" - that uses higher compression (less disc space) on fairly static images - a talking head, a shot of a sunset, a second of black between scenes and so on - and lower compression (more disc space) on busy images like crowds heading for a football match, the Red Arrows zooming past etc. In theory that is a more efficient way to compress the video ... but not necessarily the best for all-round quality. It does make sense for commercial companies wanting to put long feature films onto DVD, but for shorter work where disc space is not a problem there is no advantage that I can see.

An encoder may be one-pass or two-pass (and rarely three-pass). The one-pass system goes through the video and encodes it as it goes. The two-pass goes through the video once to assess how long it is, how much busy-ness there is in the images and so on. It then uses that information to plan how best to encode and burn the disc on the second time it goes through the video. These multi-pass approached are only used for VBR, so you can forget them!

Tom and many others suggest that one-pass, CBR at 8Mb is usually the best setting for practical purposes. A few encoders offer higher rates but normal DVD players can have trouble playing them.

NUTSHELL TIME

Use a good encoder. The one built in to a sub-£100 editing program may not be the best. If you use a PC and can splash out on the Canopus Procoder, then version 3 costs about £330. If you use a Mac the BitVice product costs around $200. If you use Casablanca ... I don't know what options you may have.

Forget cleaning your existing burner - those lens cleaning systems are of doubtful value and can sometimes cause harm. Buy a new burner. Choose any familiar make - the quality of the work they produce is not likely to be noticeably different. Col reminded us that older computers used "IDE" connections but newer ones use "SATA" connections. Check your computer's handbook.

Keep in the back of your mind that the DVD system was designed to produce high quality results even with low-cost lower-quality hardware and software. There is error-correction built-in. As Col suggests the settings you use for software make most difference, regardless of the encoder or disc drive used.
- Dave

[tom hardwick]

Beautifully put Dave - Thank you. Accurate, informed, concise - as all teachers should be.

Ian, you say you're a keen amateur, not particularly well versed in technical jargon. Your interest in making video films is the scope it offers for creativity and this must take precedence over technical knowledge. It's a laudable statement; a good film on LP VHS will always hold more sway with me than a pin-sharp Blu-ray that's a yawn-a-minute plod.

But if you have the filmmaking skill to hold an audience the next skill you need to acquire is the making of wonderfully sharp DVDs, as this is how 99.9% of your audience will see your thoughts.

So can you tell us what NLE system you're using and how you go about converting that timeline to DVD? Knowing these things we may be able to offer yet more advice. As Dave says, cheap editing programs that happen to pump out DVDs at the end (iMovie, Premiere Elements and so on) include the MPEG2 encoder for pence, whereas in reality (as Canopus have found with massive sales) Procoder 3 at £330 finds a huge number of buyers.

The best DVDs come from good MPEG compression. The worst DVDs come from so-so compression even if you're using the most expensive blanks and burners.

tom.

[Ian Woodward]

Leif, Col, Dave and Tom, you’ve all been so generous with your time, patience and knowledge that I can’t thank you enough.

Dave, you’ve made incredibly clear so much that had puzzled me; I had absolutely no idea what MPEG2, etc, meant. A big, big thanks.

Tom, my son, who’s rather cleverer at these things than Dad – his Masters degree in Physics at Oxford wasn’t wasted! – set everything up for me so that I simply clicked on my edited project, stuck a DVD in the burner, indicated how many copies I wanted, and pressed the create button. Any, I’ll put all these questions to him and hopefully come back with some answers.

You are certainly spot-on when you say “…if you have the filmmaking skill to hold an audience the next skill you need to acquire is the making of wonderfully sharp DVDs, as this is how 99.9% of your audience will see your thoughts.” Never truer statement. I’m obsessed with getting those “wonderfully sharp DVDs” to the point of paranoia! I’ve never been a “that’ll be good enough” sort of person”, hence this thread and my agonising.

Col, you said “Upgrading editing or encoding software can introduce changes to the settings of the inbuilt MPEG encoder presets, always best to check settings.” I wonder if you’ve come up with a vital clue here? As far as I can determine, the deterioration in DVD-burning quality has been most apparent since my son upgraded my editing system from Pinnacle Studio 9 to Pinnacle Studio 14 Ultimate earlier this year. At the same time I bought a new flat-screen HD monitor, on which I have been disappointed to find that my edited images look somewhat pixielated, although the burned images are not as bad, though not as crisp as were the burned images with Studio 9.

I really do think this whole subject would make a great feature in FVM, because it is clearly a minefield.

It would certainly be interesting to know how many IAC members are conscious of all the pitfalls that are out there when it comes to burning to DVD. I, for one, had no idea that, in order to achieve pin-sharp DVDs, so much technical know-how is necessary.

Ian

[col lamb]

Being a Canopus/Grass Valley user I often frequent their website and forum to check for updates and developments.

Procoder has been around in various forms for many years but unfortunately it is no longer being developed and whilst owning it is a bonus as there will be no more updates then it will in time become less and less supported and eventually it will not receive any support from Canopus. Apparently the decision not to continue its development is in some way associated with the royalties they have to pay the various codec developers and suppliers.

Encoding DVD's is very simple once you get your head around the basics, as Dave so eloquenty wrote in his detailed description it is not rocket science to understand the basics. That really is as far as one needs to go.

If you are contemplating HD and Blu Ray then getting a Blu Ray burner may be the way to go, all your options will then be available. A Blu Ray burner is backward compatible in that it will also read and write DVD's.

Learning HD encoding is another minefield and one that you will shortly see in FVM as I briefly go into it in the second part of my AVCHD series.

I have made an offer to Garth to write more articles for the Mag and if learning more about encoding DVD's and Blu Rays is what members want then I would be happly to oblige.

Whilst I do not tend to produce Blu Ray discs I do make the files but keep them electronic and view them via my WD HD TV unit. I recenty encoded a movie that is now on VIMEO in a whole host of formats in both MPEG2 and MPEG4/h264/Blu Ray and this little Western Digital unit played them all.

[ned c]

I use Toast (v9) on my Mac with excellent results. I export the timeline as a Quicktime movie' drag into Toast and set for DVD. Even if the original is HDV 1440 x 1080 or HD 1920 x 1080 it will burn an excellent Standard Definition wide screen DVD. I also have the Blu-Ray plug in for Toast and provided my program is less than about 20 minutes it will burn a Blu-Ray playable HD disc of superb quality to a standard DVD.
ned c