Your next Camcorder?

[Mike Shaw]

My reasoning says -

the same data - 0s and 1s - goes onto the tape either way. LP means the tape goes slower, so more info is packed into a cm or inch. Put another way, the information thats packed into say 2 inches on SP gets packed into 1.5 inches on LP. The facvt that the data - video and sound - is packed into 1.5 inches instead of 2 (say) means more can be crammed onto the whole tape. So at LP a tape lasts 90 minutes, at SP, 60 minutes. Same tape length. More data.

Thus the data is packed tighter onto LP speed tape than SP speed tape, to achieve the same 'data-save'.

Tom is right.

The real question is, is he ever wrong!

[tom hardwick]

Ian, I have thought about it.

SP, LP and DVCAM are three different tape speeds for the same Mini DV cassette. All three record exactly the same information - in other words the image and sound quality are identical whether the tape lasts 90 mins (LP mode) or 40 mins (DVCAM mode) or 60 mins (SP mode).

So the LP mode is far more densly packed with ones and zeros than the other two modes. The amount of information stored per second (your last sentence) is exactly the same whatever the tape speed.

tom.

[Stephen]

Gawd... leave the forum 2 minutes and its all change !!!

to try and clarify what I was trying to say previously ..
(not very well I'm afraid !!)

I was not advocating that you dump archiving to tape <sheesh>

Moi archives everything to DVtape.... and onto more than 1 tape and sometimes left in other peeps houses to be supersure!
(eg old family photos etc)

Ian, are you seriously saying that you would put all your stuff on the 'new format' eg aforementioned Tapestry disc and not make several copies ????

In the early days when storage was a premium it was difficult to keep a balance on what to archive (we're talking data here) and yes you've guessed it ... precious stuff was lost.... but DAMHIK .......you only do that once !!!!

I have had several HDDs go down big time over the last few years but 99% of files have been backed up elsewhere......

[stingman]

Gawd... leave the forum 2 minutes and its all change !!!

to try and clarify what I was trying to say previously ..
(not very well I'm afraid !!)

I was not advocating that you dump archiving to tape <sheesh>

Ian, are you seriously saying that you would put all your stuff on the 'new format' eg aforementioned Tapestry disc and not make several copies ????

I`m confused
I`ve NEVER herd of the name Tapestry! All I know about it is that old ladys do it with a special needle!

If I produce a film, I then put the finished result onto MiniDV Tape.

I also have my films still on my harddrive. If i`m feeling a bit unloved, I stick the computer on and watch one of my funny music films or my latest funny wedding film.
For example NEVER PUT YOUR HAND IN YOUR POCKET if some one is filming you especally if i`m editing it. It will look as if your playing with yourself.... Say no more....

Where`s my funny film, I need to watch it!

[stingman]

All i`m saying is, that it is better to record stuff in SP, my reasoning is as follows................

Remember the VHS days. If you record something in LP then if your heads needed cleaning it would show up on the LP footage. If you then play a SP tape, the film would be ok.

You are all right as I am It is better to film stuff in SP because it gives the better integrity and longativity.

I don`t use LP ever.

[tom hardwick]

I'm quite often forced to use LP in the church. I set the FX1 camera going at the back of the church and then go outside with the Z1 (in HDV mode) so as not to miss the bride and her father arriving in the car. If she's late (and 90% of them are) I'm always mighty glad the FX1 has a longer running time.

As the footage will only be for cut-aways in my final edit (and it's good to have another audio backup of course) I'm not at all concerned that it's recording in the SD mode. I replay that tape in the FX1 with n'er a dropout.

tom.

[Michael Slowe]

I have not read the forum for a while and all sorts of odd things have been written!

Firstly Tom, if tape formats (digital) are all the same quality why did Sony go to the trouble with DVCAM and why did I struggle all those years with a damn great heavy DSR 300? I know the information is the same but I thought that the bigger and faster running DVCAM was safer.

Secondly Mr. Thurso I can't possibly think what terrible regrets I will have by not keeping every single second of whatever I've shot since I started filming in 1964. I repeat, I do archive productions to tape (DVCAM) and also have original final cuts of all my films, both 8mm and 16mm. Hard drives are not the answer as all recognize except Stingman but the likely good solution will be in the form of solid state cards as outlined by someone here, especially as it seems that their capacity will eventually be sensational. They won't degrade and when they look like becoming obsolete the material can be transferred to the new wonder.

[stingman]

The only problem I see with Solid State(Chips) in keeping the data on is this...

Even these arn`t failsafe!!!
Take the humble Datastick. A memory chip with USB support. These sometimes go a bit crazy and suddenly stop working. Mine have been ok, but I have heard storys...

So whats the answer. If you want military storage then go for anything you can afford. If it`s just for our films (In this case it is) then I surpose anything will do !

So basicly, NO storage is foolproof.

[tom hardwick]

You're quite correct Michael, the faster running tape is 'safer' in that more tape is used to store the same information. So in DVCAM, a crinkle in the tape will affect fewer frames than in LP mode. But is it 'safer' as far as retrieval goes? There are far more decks around that will decode SP than there are that will decode DVCAM.

Oh, and you carried round a huge DSR camera because if gave much better pictures than the VX1000.

Also when Sony announced the faster running DVCAM mode it introduced bigger 3 hour tapes, thinking that SP mode would never be particually reliable. Well they've been proved wrong, and quite amazing tape manufacture quality control and in-camera error correction have made SP mode every bit as reliable as DVCAM.

DVCAM also features locked audio, but in an hour of shooting in the SP mode, has anyone ever noticed any sync loss? I think it's theoretically possible for them to be a fifth of a second out (5 frames) after an hour - but as I say, I've not come across this.

tom.

[stingman]

I have not read the forum for a while and all sorts of odd things have been written!

Great isn`t it. You love it really

That`s what this forum is all about. We`re only human, we think were all right all the time. But over the last few months, we have admitted when we`ve got it wrong.
We have very few flameing and slaggings off lately. Not much fun but a bit more civilised!

[bunny]

I am confused Mind you I was born confused. Life was far simpler in the 60s with my Kodak Brownie standard 8mm movie camera.

My trusty Panasonic NV DS 38 is on its last legs which is why this thread interested me. I had it repaired last year and don't think its worth repairing again. Dropping it didn't help I had hoped that the thread would come up with a perfect replacement .

So how about it then. Budget Max £1500 but preferable under £1000. Mini DV tape, Manual focus exposure and white balance essential. Microphone and headphone socket. DV in and out SVHS in if possible. The ability to shoot in HD not essential but may be nice to future proof it. Is that possible these days?

When I brought the DS 38 the magazine read listed all current camcorders and all the features so it was easy to highlight the features you wanted and eliminate the models that didn't fit your criteria


Confused of Croydon

[tom hardwick]

Does confused of Croydon really mean Mini DVD essential? If so the Panasonic HDC-DX1 (£590) looks to be a good one. Hi def - and therefore 16:9 by definition - but the DVD means it records AVCHD files and the 1.4 gb discs only hold 14 mins of footage before they've got to be replaced or recorded over. Compatibility with editing software is poor.

If I were you I's stick to tape. 13 gb for a pound is hard to beat.

tom.

[bunny]

Does confused of Croydon really mean Mini DVD essential? If so the Panasonic HDC-DX1 (£590) looks to be a good one. Hi def - and therefore 16:9 by definition - but the DVD means it records AVCHD files and the 1.4 gb discs only hold 14 mins of footage before they've got to be replaced or recorded over. Compatibility with editing software is poor.

If I were you I's stick to tape. 13 gb for a pound is hard to beat.

tom.

Whops Sorry I meant tape. Dyslexia strikes again . I edit using Premier 6.5 on a lowish spec computer and dont want to upgrade for a while. I also archive on to DV tape.

Even more confused of Croydon

[tom hardwick]

Good. Glad you've changed your mind. Mini DV is streets ahead of the silly DVD camcorders, though I'm pretty sure salesmen have an easy time shifting the latter.

The camera you want is the Canon MV-20, no doubt about it. If that doesn't appeal then go for the Sony HC7. It's not as good, but hey, the nut behind the shutter has far more influence on the film's outcome than ever a camcorder did.

tom.

[stingman]

May be the Sony FX1 or equivilent. You won`t want another camera. I think they are about £1800, or if not, ask around and search the web.
It does HD.
You will need to upgrade your computer and Premiere to do the benifits of HD. It`s VERY memory and Resourses hungry.