FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

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Lee Prescott
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Lee Prescott » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:18 pm

'Lo: A posting in response to Mr. Michael Gough's expo!

Yes, 50 years is a long time to be a member, my own, originally, is actually 54 years, (1960), but let all that pass for what it's worth as an irrelevancy!

Re your remarks about SSVU, ME! - and "The Apparition". As usual and always your ilk miss the point entirely which are comments emanating from our Young People re the totally unconstructive comments from you related to the fact that these Young Film Makers look for and expect that People With 50 years "experience" should know better.....

Regarding viewing the film on YouTube&c...I have already answered that in a separate Topic headed "On Vimeo etc." in response to Ned Cordery Perhaps you would re enter The Forums and read it. It is true. - You should know at your age and "experience" that at times other factors come into play related to Young People which must be respected!

A final word on "judging" considering your input: -- Each film should be considered on its OWN MERITS and NOT in comparison with others! This is one of the major things wrong within the IaC Camp!

Apologies that this has nothing to do with Huey's original Thread - but I must Post here Mr. Michael Gough, in response to your comments.

LEE.

John Roberts
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by John Roberts » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:27 pm

I think we're just going round and round in circles. Because the film in question is not available to view - for very valid reasons as posted elsewhere - it will always remain one person's opinion against another in the eyes of everyone else. Without knowing the full story, and that includes any comments made by club members to the young people in question following the comments made, we shall probably never get to the bottom of things.

Re the judging - each film should certainly be critiqued on its own merits. In almost all competitions there will be multiple entries for the same category or theme, or an 'open' competition where entries will have strengths in different areas of technical achievements and artistic merit, but a judge still has to pick an overall winner from what he is presented with so in that respect films have to be compared against the others in that competition. Every BIAFF entry can receive judges comments based on that film's individual merits, but even BIAFF has an overall winner.

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Dave Watterson
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Dave Watterson » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:46 pm

For the first time in years, I have removed some posts because they were turning into personal attacks.

Please use restraint everyone. It may seem a little old-fashioned to insist on a degree of politeness, but without that it is all too easy for people to take serious offence. We are all hobbyists sharing our love of film making.

Lee Prescott
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Lee Prescott » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:37 am

Michael Gough wrote:
“The Apparition” is a good film. Please tell me what we missed.
=================================================

Mr. Michael Gough:

Late response due to a problem, sorry

To answer you. might I suggest you read SOCO NEWS for November, December: Item "analysis" by Rob McGuire!

LEE.

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Michael Gough
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Michael Gough » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:20 am

I’m sure there are many forum contributors who think that this has deteriorated into a rather sterile discussion. As John correctly described it is “just going round and round in circles”. I understand and accept the reasons given by Lee for being unable to put the video “The Apparition” on the internet for us all to see so I do not ask for any more evidence from him. However he did put it in a Competition to be judged by myself and two others. Any such entry implies a willingness to accept that opinions might be stated that might be contrary to the maker’s own views of his own film. I stand by the judges’ joint decision not to rate this film very highly. On the other hand Lee and Rob have every right to disagree. SSVU would not be the first film makers to feel disappointed at the judges’ comments. It is just unusual to challenge the result in such a public way.

With regard to the SoCo News letter that Lee draws to our attention (he did not mention in his last mailing that he partly contributed to it himself, which hardly makes it an independent opinion) I actually read it weeks ago. But this is not the appropriate forum for me to point out it’s inaccuracies. For everyone else this is a pointless discussion about a film that few, if any, have seen and therefore have no idea whether the judges are being fair or not. I will therefore cut my ties with this endless circle. I will not say any more and will let this thread get back to original subject of the FVM Dec 2014.

I notice that Lee has started a new thread with my name as being the subject!!! I was not part of that decision and have no idea what Lee expects it to be about. If it is just a continuation of the current two sided discussion about the video “The Apparition” I will not be contributing.

For all of you who are still here, thanks for listening (or more correctly reading)

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TimStannard
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by TimStannard » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:16 pm

I quite agree, Michael (and John), this is a pointless exercise as "we" do not have the main facts (the film) and are therefore unable to formulate any sort of meaningful opinion.

However, in broader terms, I would love to see far more discussion about films which we can see - and even better for judges to be able to expand upon (justify?) their reasons for their comments. On the rare occasion when I have challenged (sorry, that's far too strong - maybe "questioned") a judge about a comment they have made on my own film I have invariably learned something, if not had my eyes opened to something. And this is surely why we submit films to be judged - to learn something, to see how we can improve or broaden our appeal. Not to win trophies (although I'll freely admit I'd be on cloud nine if I ever produced something the judges thought worthy of 5 stars or a Diamond). And by opening up such discussion - on a public forum - we can ALL benefit - the judges as well.

But attacking judges is hardly conducive to opening up this sort of discussion.

I'd not suggestion we should all expect judges publicly to justify their comments, but it would be nice to give them the opportunity if they so desire (and indeed to decide with the benefit of hindsight that they were wrong). I wonder if the recipients of the comments about "The Apparition" bothered to write to the judges asking whether they could elaborate on their comments. This might be more fruitful than castigating them in the semi-public newsletter.

No-one is going to die because of a (film) judge's decision; no-one's career is going to be in the balance.

Occasionally, just occasionally, this forum has a debate about a film that we are all able to watch (I'm thinking of John Roberts' "Thinking Time" for one) and these discussions are worth more to me than any number of whinges about what's wrong with the IAC or judges.
Tim
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Michael Gough
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Michael Gough » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:12 am

Tim introduces a very interesting idea which deserves a new thread of it’s own. I enjoy friendly discussion of videos and have certainly benefited myself, even when it was someone else’s video under analysis.
No one has ever written to me to complain about my judge’s comments. I can recall one occasion when a movie maker challenged me face to face. Personally I did not think it was an important issue but clearly the person concerned had been stewing over it for about 5 years. We met as strangers in a non-video environment but when he learnt my name his attitude changed. He mentioned a film of his that I had judged years earlier. I actually remembered the film, which I had enjoyed, but in my comments I had expressed a fairly innocent comment about a single shot. He had waited five years to tell me that there had been a valid reason for shooting it that way which was beyond his control. I wished he had told me earlier as it might have saved him years of frustration.
Alternatively I have had some enjoyable conversations or mails with makers who thanked me for giving them a fresh insight. We have both been enabled to expand on our reasons for doing or writing something. I have also had mutually enjoyable exchanges with people who have actually asked me to view a new piece of work. Obviously it requires that both sides are prepared to watch and listen with an open mind.
This is where I think we need to tread carefully in developing Tim’s idea in public. I think it would be best separated from the idea of a previous competition, when any comment by an actual judge might be seen as being instrumental in the film “failing” to win. This exercise should not be seen as arguing with the judges but more in helping the maker with new insights.
If the idea is to provide a service it would have to be both constructive and challenging. It may be difficult to openly challenge a colleague in public but it would be better than seeing the debate deteriorate into bland friendly back-slapping which I have noticed on this forum in the past. It also requires genuine trust between all participants that they are not just defending some pre-set agenda.
It also requires an acceptance that in terms of audience opinion there is no “right” answer. There may be disagreements between the viewers as well, but that allows the maker to consider all alternatives and choose the one that seems right for their circumstances.
Who’s going to be first to submit their masterpiece to public comment? Let friendly analysis and advice commence!

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Dave Watterson
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Dave Watterson » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:30 am

I suggest we use the "Help and Advice for Newcomers" forum, which gets very little use for its intended purpose. All comments on that forum are moderated before being made public.

If that idea finds favour I will amend the title of that forum a bit!

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TimStannard
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by TimStannard » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:38 pm

Dave,

I've posted this here as it leads on but I'd be more than happy if you could split out this OT thread into a new one.

All,

I'd certainly welcome an expansion of the "Help and Advice" but to be honest, like many here, I already have a circle of people of whom I can ask opinions of on my own films as well as forums so I have no need for that (although additional sources of opinions are always welcome). I think the fact on that particular forum posts have to be approved by a moderator before they are posted rather stifles it. We're all adults and in my experience such forums become self moderated with offensive people getting very short shrift (or better still ignored) and really offensive posts removed by mods within a day or two. Unlike YouTube, people don't tend to join forums just to post "This really sucks"

Michael Gough said we have to tread carefully and I can understand we do not want to publicly castigate judges but I want to understand why judges made certain decisions. If I knew the reason why a "comment by an actual judge might be seen as being instrumental in the film “failing” to win." then I would at least know why it failed to win and could make my own decision about whether, with the benefit of this additional knowledge, I agree with the judge or not. It's not really about my films - it's about the others - those about which I am not able to see the judges comments, let alone question them.

Here's an example: "A Fistful of Conkers". I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it was well made and generally well acted. However, I have a hard time understanding why it received the Best British Entry at BIAFF and a Diamond Award. I understand the film has gone on to receive a silver medal at UNICA. This clearly backs up the judges at BIAFF, so I'm clearly missing something. I can't help feeling that the fact the film was made by young people influenced the judges' decision - I'm probably totally wrong, but unless I can discuss this with the judges or people who might be seeing something I cannot, I'll never know.
Tim
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Frank Maxwell
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Frank Maxwell » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:31 pm

Well Tim I was wondering about the video "A FISTFUL OF CONKERS" so I had a look and came to the same conclusion as you. If i was a judge that video would not have been very high on my merit list. Production wise well done. Wrong title in my eyes. "Golden Conkers" would have been better. The two boys were smiling when saying there lines. Headmaster was very good with his line delivery. The boy with his eye patch looked uncomfortable.
I think it won all them awards because it was easy on the eyes to watch.

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TimStannard
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by TimStannard » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:10 pm

I trust judges enough to know that they wouldn't mark something high simply to encourage young film makers or because it is easy on the eye. My desire is not to be able criticise their decisions, but to understand them.
Tim
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Lee Prescott
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by Lee Prescott » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:11 pm

Michael Gough wrote:.With regard to the SoCo News letter that Lee draws to our attention (he did not mention in his last mailing that he partly contributed to it himself, which hardly makes it an independent opinion) I actually read it weeks ago. But this is not the appropriate forum for me to point out it’s inaccuracies.
Mr. Gough: I agree that there's no point in continuing this: However, before closing I Must respond to your above quoted comment.....
I sincerely hope that you are not suggesting I wrote or engineered Rob's piece in the Nov. Dec. 2014 SOCO NEWS! I did not, and did not have too - you and your colleagues did that!!! And - there are no inaccuracies.
All I added - clearly - was a "Footnote" which I seriousy suggest you and your colleagues take on board"!

As to your other questioning, I repeated my prior answer to you separately in case you missed it herein! To paraphrase you "What Did I Miss" -
seems to me that "missing things" is your constant!


LEE.

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fraught
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by fraught » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:50 pm

I'm out of it for a little while and all hell breaks loose!

Merry Christmas everyone! Hope you all have good New Year's celebration tomorrow.

Peace and Goodwill to all!


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Only Boring People Get Bored
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tom hardwick
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by tom hardwick » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:42 pm

Lee, you say, quote, 'Each film should be considered on its OWN MERITS and NOT in comparison with others!'

Are you talking about films entered into film competitions? If so, I find your comment quite extraordinary. Surely competitions exist to find the best athlete, fastest car, highest flier, most gifted musician, best dressed film star (I could go on).

Of course judges should consider the merits of each competitor as you say. But as I've often pointed out, it's as well to remember that your film is in competition with all the other films entered. In other words it's actually in direct comparison with others - so I maintain you should delete the word 'NOT' from your sentence.

tom.

tom hardwick
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Re: FVM MAGAZINE - DECEMBER 2014

Post by tom hardwick » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:53 pm

To Frank and Tim.

I was the judge that, having just seen the film, immediately volunteered to do the write-up of 'A Fistfull of Conkers'. As we know, the judges comments are not published on the IAC's site, but (if you send me your email addresses) I'd happily send you my word.doc to put your minds at rest as to why the film scored so highly.

tom.

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