What should IAC be thinking about?

[Brian Saberton]

I see we are back to that old chestnut of converting Film and Video Maker to an on-line publication. Well, I've tried on-line magazines and have to say that it was a pretty miserable experience. I found the whole process to be inconvenient and unpleasant to read. In my opinion a printed magazine is far more user friendly and convenient to use than its on-line counterpart and, while it might suit some, it certainly doesn't suit me. New technology is a wonderful thing but change isn't always for the better and I don't see why it should be considered to be fuddy duddy to express a preference for printed media. As far as the bookshelves are concerned there were plenty of magazines in WH Smith when I looked this morning and a plethora of publications relating to photography, which is enjoying quite a boom in popularity at the moment. In fact, I'm told that a camera club near me has attracted around 20 new members so far in just the last month. This brings me to another point, namely that the IAC has a large number of members who are audio-visual workers and we also have quite a lot of affiliated camera clubs. I don't know what the proportion is compared to the film-making side but it's something that needs to be borne in mind when considering the future, especially now that many stills cameras have a movie making function.

OK Guys - that's my rant over for the day!

[Chrisbitz]

I'm sorry you see it as an old chestnut.

Personally, I read the http://www.bbc.co.uk/news website every day, and as an online magazine, I find it a perfect replacement for a daily newspaper. It may be that you disagree and you hate everything about the BBC news website, but the fact remains, that it's one of Britains most popular and successful websites amongst all ages.

Alternatively, maybe you love it and don't consider it an online magazine. Maybe like many people you thought of an online magazine as a a PDF file on a website.

What my point was, was that none of us know what the future of the internet is, but I wouldn't mind betting that in 5-10 years it'll be bigger than print and TV put together, like it or not.

I appreciate WH Smith is still in business, but you can't deny that there's a LOT less magazines on the shelf than there used to be. http://blogs.pressgazette.co.uk/wire/7267

A business can either be aware of future changes, or fizzle out as the world moves on without them. I'm not suggesting that the IAC stop printing tomorrow, I'm just saying that I'll bet that the FVM won't be the same in 5 years time, because it will have to adapt or die.

[Mike Shaw]

I'm with Brian 110% on this one. We hear over and over again that Internet publishing is going to replace the printed page. I say, rubbish. It won't ever, and to suggest it would is ludicrous and totally failing to recognise and identify the different markets and their needs.

Yes, Internet publishing is alive, animated and can be kept topical - far more so than the printed page ever could be with its long lead times.

The two media processes are totally different, have totally different appeals, meet totally different needs. They can and should co-exist , but not merge or be integrated.

I too look at the BBC news on a daily basis - it is my 'home page' in fact. I don't read newspapers ... and I don't commute: those two facts are inter-related. If I did commute, I couldn't take my PC with me, and I sure as heck wouldn't want to read a 'newspaper' on a tiddly screen that depended upon a network connection either. When I do travel on public transport. or sit in the garden, or relax in front of the fire, I want to read and flick through the pages of a magazine or book, not balance a laptop or net-book on my knees and worry how long the batteries will last.

The BBC produces magazines as well as being a broadcaster and providing a web service - one I subscribe to (Focus) also has an 'ap' for the i-things. I saw it on someone's i-thing, and frankly, compared with the magazine, it is rubbish.

I'm prepared to take Chris's bet on. The Internet may well grow even further, but it will never replace the printed word, and will never be a substitute for the printed word. It will, I'm sure, be a useful adjunct to the printed word, a handy resource for use when - and only when - it is convenient so to do.

Some club magazines are sent to me (for writing Southern Script) as pdf files. Our own club magazine 'ViewFinder' comes to me as a pdf or doc file. First thing I do is print them out ... so I can ring and mark up sections of interest. (Yes I could do that on a pdf or doc file ... but when preparing the column, I like to have them all physically around me: not so easy to do even on a large monitor when the document being written is also on-screen).

That's just ONE instance of why the printed word is, and always will be superior to the the web-word. I could name another 100 with ease. I worked in the media, was a frequent visitor to the editorial offices of various major magazines: yes they had and worked on massive PC/Mac screens. Surrounded by a mass of paperwork, magazines, books....

Chris does make one valid point though - an Internet 'magazine' is not necessarily (or even desirably) 'just' a pdf file. That is where the Internet 'magazine can and should shine - with a dynamic approach - showing videos, responses from people and so on. Until the printed word gets the animated Harry Potter touch, it will always be second best as far as dynamism is concerned. The OVFM web site (eg) proves this - compared with the magazine, it is alive and dynamic, more up to date. Same with the IAC site.

The big mistake, in my opinion, is to try to equate web publishing with print - and to then try to integrate the two: they are mutually independent. Each has its rightful place. Let us please leave it that way.

Leave FVM as a printed magazine, and let the IAC Website shine where it shines best -
and let us not try to force the printed magazine onto a screen that few can (or want to) read in comfort away from their computers.

Quite a 2 pennyworth!

[Dave Watterson]

Few people realise that around half of IAC's annual expenditure goes on the magazine. The other half rents an office, pays for a part-time staffer and covers everything else.

Few people realise that Garth spends several days each time packing and posting the magazine with its different enclosures (so that you get your regional magazine and relevant flyers).

Preparing, printing and posting hard copy costs a great deal of money.

Preparation does not change much for an electronic version but the other costs simply vanish.

For many years the Canadian Federation produced an excellent magazine called Panorama whose online version still had a full-size colour cover. (http://www.sccaonline.ca/PANORAMA.htm) The Federation of Australian Movie Makers produces an online magazine with a similar cover page ... and its gets longer and livelier each issue. (http://www.famm.org.au/resources/magazines.html) It can also include clickable links to regional and local newsletters, other websites etc. Every page can have colour and films can be embedded or linked.

As a voracious reader I consume magazines and books in vast quantities - some on Kindle, some online and some on paper. They are different but not dramatically so. The difference is that I can often buy a book on Kindle cheaper than in my local second-hand and charity shops!

BUT my original question was about what IAC could or should be doing. At present it seems to be stagnating. Things are carrying on as always ... except that services are slipping away - where is the book library? When were films last added to the video library? What happened to training courses? Where are the IAC film leaders? What about the tinfoil IAC seals? Why are there so few club productions in the annual competition? And above all where are the new members (of any age) to help keep things going? What happened to the enthusiasm?

Dave

[Mike Shaw]

I (and others) think the half spent on the magazine is well spent. It is the only way many members 'keep in touch' with the rest of the IAC world - not everyone has or uses the internet constantly, or wants to live by it.

Last year at the AGM we saw that the IAC's coffers had swollen quite a lot (can't rtmember the exact figure, but it was pretty substantial) and I suggested some of the funds should be fed back to the regions to help put on these annual weekends and events (which not only have to be self supporting, but profit-making with a share kept by the region and the rest passed on to the IAC). As a result of that discussion, a one off payment was made, I believe, to each of the regions to support their activities. But that is not really the point I was making when I said that the printed and internet publications should co-exist and not be merged.

I don't want a Kindle. I know it's value - family members have one and swear by it. I know a lot of people who couldn't afford a Kindle, and see no point in buying one: their interests should be met along with those who like to 'internet' their reading material.

I know the benefits of an internet publication over a printed publication, cost and immediacy being just two of them. But printed material, in turn, has huge advantages over the stuff transmitted through the ether. One system should not exclude the other - that's all I'm really saying.

I'd really hate to envisage a world where Libraries vanish completely, where bookshops vanish (as they are doing now, sadly, but that is more because people are buying books on the internet), where the only reading material is on an electronic screen.

They said TV would kill the cinema. It cetainly harmed it for a while, but now the two co-exist, along with the intermediary - DVDs.

Costs may dictate a re-organisation of the frequency and manner in which printed material is produced: that I can understand. Dropping the printed word entirely in favour of the internet publication, I cannot.

[Chrisbitz]

I don't want a Kindle. I know it's value - family members have one and swear by it. I know a lot of people who couldn't afford a Kindle, and see no point in buying one: their interests should be met along with those who like to 'internet' their reading material.

I know what you mean, I don't see the point of one either, but I can name 5 people I know who poured scorn on the kindle when they first heard about it, and then they actually tried it, and bought one!

I know the benefits of an internet publication over a printed publication, cost and immediacy being just two of them. But printed material, in turn, has huge advantages over the stuff transmitted through the ether. One system should not exclude the other - that's all I'm really saying.

What huge advantages does printed matter have? Whenever I ask people, the only defence they can give to printed matter is a somewhat wishy washy "I like holding paper in my hand". If thats the only defence printed paper has over electronic communication, it's probably not gonna save it long term!

They said TV would kill the cinema. It cetainly harmed it for a while, but now the two co-exist, along with the intermediary - DVDs.

In all honesty, I think TV certainly did kill Cinema.

In it's original form. But Cinema adapted and changed and easily survived and even coninued to grow with flying colours.

So my guess is that internet will kill printed matter, IN TIME, unless printed matter adapts too in some way.

At the risk of backing you into a corner, in one statement, you say the internet isn't going to replace the printed page, and then you say you read BBC News everytime you start your browser, and you don't buy newspapers anymore. so hasn't BBC news replaced the printed newspaper in your world already?

Anyway, thats my whole point. I'm not saying printing presses should shudder to a halt tomorrow, just that their time is limited in their current form. Who knows, maybe internet enabled electronic paper will be invented next year. But as for thin sheets of wood pulp, your time is limited.

[TimStannard]

I know what you mean, I don't see the point of [a Kindle] either,

I'm surprised.

I see the Kindle (or eBooks in general) as the natural successor to the magazine. It has most of the advantages of printed material (it is easily portable, is easy on the eye, is easy to bookmark and make notes on) without the disadvantages of internet publications (requires internet connection, is tiring to read for any length of time) plus it has the adantage of much cheaper and more timely delivery of content.

It would be a fairly trivial matter to make an eBooks version of FVM each issue. Why not offer it to members as an additional format, paving the way for offering it as an alternative to the printed copy. In the medium term members could get a discount for opting out of the printed version - or pay a premium for opting in - as a means of accelerating the move away from printed material?

Contrast this with developing a web version to run in parallel with the printed version. Because the media require very different approaches, I suspect we'd end up with a good web and poor printed version, vice-versa, or even worse two poorly produced versions.

Reading on the web is great for up to date info, quick "bites", multimedia and links to reference or related material but for in-depth articles or relaxing reading printed matter or an eBook wins hands down.

And don't forget there are plenty of free eBook readers available for the Web for those who do not want to buy a dedicated device or simply prefer to read on the web.

[Dave Watterson]

Nice idea, Tim ... but photos would be a problem on Kindle.

Dave

[ned c]

First and foremost we are about the moving image; not the written word or still images. I have never really understood why there is a section for AV makers who are well served by the RPS and local camera clubs who are not part of the movie club circuit. If the US experience is anything to go by camera clubs are in good health and don't need help.

The question is how to effectively spend the money that the IAC has. If growth/survival is an objective then the magazine really has no part in this; it is internally circulated and does not reach the broad world of n-c/low budget movie making, it is not a recruiting medium. This world is certainly interested in Festivals/competitions so the BIAFF is where the money should go with a student section and decent awards and a presence in withoutabox ( www.withoutabox.com ) to attract a broader base of entrants and potential members with member's discounts and special awards.

Whether we like it or not the world is going digital; in an earlier post I pointed out that "film" the photochemical material, has no future and will certainly disappear. I don't know what the time frame is but it will happen. Projection prints for cinemas are rapidly disappearing as digital projection takes over, major manufacturers are no longer making film cameras, film processin labs are closing. However every major print archive is digitizing its holdings and thus making access easier and broader.

Look at the USA and Canada to see what happens to National organizations that do not change; AMPS and the SCCA are on the ropes with survival in question.

At present the IACs constituency is made up of an endangered group; amateur movie makers in their later years. This is not a grouping with a long term future in my opinion and if survival/growth of the IAC is an objective then this constituency needs to be broadened.

ned c

[TimStannard]

Nice idea, Tim ... but photos would be a problem on Kindle.

Let's examine this...

Firstly, Kindle will happily display 16 shade greyscale images. OK this will not work for showing articles where detailed colour is necessary, but how many articles really need this? (also see my second point). In the same way that the (current) Kindle cannot display colour images, the current cannot display moving images - which one might have thought was a major disadvantage for a magazine about movie making!

Secondly, why do magazines have nice glossy colour photos? In some cases it is to illustrate a point, but I suspect that in the main they are there to provide an eye-catching look to the magazine and break up what would otherwise be a double A4 spread of text, which would look unappealing.

The first use (illustration), is probably better served nowadays by the inteweb where we can display moving images as well as stills. Even so, for many purposes a grayscale illustration will provide enough information.

The second use, the aesthetic reason, disappears with the Kindle as there is not a vast spread of text on display which needs to be broken up.

I just think we ned to think a little ouside the box. I read FVM (and other magazines) for the text. Photos rarely add value to the actual content - and if i want to research something in greater detail, I'll browse the web. And a Kindle is a really convenient way to read text.

[Mike Shaw]

I hope you're all not seriously suggesting that IAC members lash out over £100 each in order to buy a machine in order to read their favourite (?) magazine - a machine that is inferior to the printed page in quality, size, and ability to reproduce colour images.

Kindle may be convenient for carrying entire libraries when on the move, but for me, whether in the comfort of my own home or travelling, I'd rather have the magazine to flip through or a book, and that has nothing to do with 'feeling the paper between my fingers'.

I do have a smartphone - and it does have a Kindle ap on it - ostensibly in colour I might add. But having tried, there is no way I'd ever choose to read a magazine on it - its like putting a small mask over the printed page and wandering around trying to read it that way. And having actually downloaded a book for it as well - I'll never do that again. Not a pleasant experience trying to read the book at all. I appreciate a Kindle is bigger - marginally - but for me, no way.

As to whether it is 'the future' - I'm sure it may well be. But it is a long way away from being acceptable in size, quality and price.

Yes, printed material is expensive to produce, has long lead times (and keeps a lot of people employed throughout the chain). But until there is a sensible alternative available to everyone, lets not keep praising the unpraiseworthy in an attempt to prune IAC costs. At last years AGM it was apparent the IAC coffers are pretty well filled: indeed, at the last AGM I suggested that some of those funds be fed back to the regions to help pay for the annual events held on the IAC's behalf (and which the regions had to fund out of their own bank balances - and pay a large proportion of any profit made back to the IAC). I understand that - whether as a result of that or not - money was paid to each region to help with their events during the past year.

IAC funds, as Dave has said, pay for the magazine and for the underlying running costs of the organisation.

The question was 'What should the IAC be thinking About?' I'd say definitely not Kindle readers for members - or web publishing as an alternative without an option to receive a hard copy if so desired(but remember, smaller print runs become even more expensive).

My points for discussion -
* more promotion of the IAC, with a Public Relations/Press Officer to 'push' the IACs activities in all relevant printed and broadcast media. (BIAFF should be a news item on the BBC for example).
* more attention to attracting a younger membership by (perhaps) setting 'challenges' to schools
* greater integration with camera clubs: let's face it, still cameras (with movie capabilities) are beginning to steal the video thunder: now is the time to jump in and attract people while the market is young and pretty raw.

...that's just for starters. I may dream up a few more suggestions on the train to Stirling ... instead of reading a magazine ...

[TimStannard]

I hope you're all not seriously suggesting that IAC members lash out over £100 each in order to buy a machine in order to read their favourite (?) magazine - a machine that is inferior to the printed page in quality, size, and ability to reproduce colour images.

No I'm not Mike. I'm seriously suggesting it as an easy to produce alternative which may be offered to those who already own and are happy to use a Kindle or other eBook.
Not only does this have the potential of saving money in print and distribution, but also shows we are able to move with the times. Whether or not it suits your needs, describing the Kindle ias unpraiseworthy will do nothing to help the IAC attract new members who maybe love the technology.

I have also has a similar experience to you with trying to use readers on smartphones - I agree: it's rubbish! I can assure you a Kindle is nothing like that. Having a screen size which is more akin to a smallish paperback, the "reading experience" is an entirely different matter.

Anyway, Mike, you're quite right, we've got off the track - my suggestion about Kindle was only in response to those who suggested a move from print to the web (which I would find extremely inconvenient).

I like the challenges to schools idea. Whilst I do not think this will directly impact upon membership, it will help raise awareness and promote the IAC. I see this as crucial. How many people who start shooting video are even aware of us? Perhaps there should be (and maybe there is) a method whereby clubs could apply to the IAC for assistance with funding for projects where they is seen to be a clear benefit to the IAC. For example, in our "patch" the National Physical Laboratories runs a schools video challenge (schools have to make a 2 min video explaining a scientific principle of their choice). Perhaps the IAC should get involved with that - sponser a prize or two, provide a judge or two???

[Mike Shaw]

Yes - I'm all for offering alternative options: that to me is the way to go. Options, not exclusions. And yes, I agree that the principle of a Kindle is better than Internet publishing, although the two are variations on a theme. For me, the problem with an internet magazine (or pages like the BBC site) -even on a large screen PC - is it is difficult to know 'how much' is there. A magazine I can see has 150 pages say. But an internet magazine? Dave mentioned once that the IAC site has 500+ pages to it. As a book, that would be quite an interesting browse. As a website, I've probably seen no more than half a dozen of the pages - nothing has induced me to explore more. I find what I want, and that's it.

The problem with print is, printing fewer copies doesn't mean a proportional reduction in costs - as might be the case with 'home printing'. A large chunk of the cost of printing, as you know, is in the setting up costs - after that, it's just down to the cost of paper. So 100 copies of FVM wouldn't cost proportionally less than 2000 copies.

Schools are indeed a prime target. Some promotion is being done to schools at the moment - I know in our Region schools are informed about and are invited to enter our Region and County festivals - and some do. But they also seem to have other outlets for viewing their films as well - which attract comparatively large numbers of people: the Annual film festival in Bexley, for example, is made up mainly of school entries ... and fills a public cinema plus several other venues catering for the overflow over a few days! The standard is exceptionally high and most of the film-makers are under 18! Why aren't they in the IAC? How does one attract them? As they say, the children are the future - and the schools are full of 'em! Where better to go to attract them to the cause: so yes, ways and means of getting schools involved with the IAC - and generally pushing awareness of the IAC through the broadcast media (where film excerpts and clips can be shown) is probably a priority for discussion. ??

[Dave Watterson]

IAC website presents:
159 complete non-commercial movies;
275 "making of" articles from film makers
and many other fascinating pages under headings like
Film>Learn from others,
Events>UNICA,
IAC>Library of films,
Clubs>How to build a club website
and much, much more.
So Mike is right, it is hard to comprehend just how much is available there.

On getting to schools - there are more than 22,156 primary schools in the UK and over 3,904 secondary schools. Think of the postage! And think of how much bumf arrives daily in schools and is binned by the secretaries.

On creating an electronic version of Film & Video Magazine - it is one of the few concrete things IAC can point to as a benefit of membership ... if it were freely available to all ...

I did not want to go negative in this thread but we have diverted rather a lot into the pros and cons on online reading! As Ned pointed out that is not what our hobby is about.

More radical ideas, please!

Dave

[Mike Shaw]

Dave Dave Dave!! I'm surprised you mentioned posting stuff to schools! That's the last way I'd use - for the very reasons you give. There are other ways - for example publications (for press releases) that are directed at schools and teachers, and ... emails perhaps.

An electronic version of FVM need not be available for all to read - it can be email address and password protected, just as those Internet publications requiring payment to view. I agree its full content should be available only to members, but like many club sites, there can be a 'public' area - an appetite whetter if you like - with the real meat avail;able to 'member only'. An online magazine could (and should IMO) not only reflect the published version, but also show dynamic content - in other words, it should be a bit more than 'just' a pdf of the printed version. However, that means someone looking after that process ... another volunteer willing to give up his/her valuable time.

Another radical - I know the reasons why Unica isn't held in this country (costs, costs, and costs) ... but surely outside sponsors could be sought: think of the publicity the IAC could glean from such an event in the UK. We have the capability. But not the backers (it costs a LOT of money to organise).