It really is time!!!!

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ned c
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It really is time!!!!

Post by ned c »

My copy of F&VM has arrived. A darned good read thanks to Tom and Jan and Ken and Ron. Hey, hold on a minute Ron maker of "Letters from the Front" user of professional actors and music composer. Now don't misunderstand me I haven't seen the film but all praise to the crew who made it, however what was the amateur element in this production? It really is time to expunge the word "amateur" from all that we do. The last rules for the BIAFF stated (I don't remember the exact words) "that the film must be made without professional assistance" a rule obviously ignored by both entrants and judges. Far better to say that no-one may receive payment for working on a production and the production is made solely for the pleasure of making a movie. The IAC has almost escaped the "amateur" label now it is time to address the BIAFF; how about the BIFVF - sounds great to me.

ned c

ps I am as guilty as anyone in "overlooking" the BIAFF rules, I once worked for money making movies and "Hey Kiddo" was directed by a professional actor with film experience and the sound recorded by a professional sound recordist. Of course no-one was paid.
Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

I hadn't checked the rules close enough to realise that the phrase " the film must be made without professional assistance" was a part of the deal. That is patently archaic ... and I agree, that somehow, 'not made for profit, made for pleasure' or some such phraseology should replace it.

I wonder how many times we're going to go down this road - i think, surely, everyone agrees that wherever creative work is involved, the word 'amateur' has amateurish connotations. Where the activity is not creative (dare I suggest golf, for example?), people don't mind being called amateurs - same with other sporting activities. Why? Because the measurement of 'skill and ability is definitive and objective. You win, you get a good score, or you lose. Full stop. Creative work is subjective. There is no right and wrong.

All the name/description needs is the right terminology that doesn't include negatives, that enables professionals to make 'amateur' 'not-for-profit' movies, and everyone will be happy.

And what does 'not for profit' mean? If someone makes a film that hosts of people want to buy ... should they receive it free at the film-makers expense to satisfy the 'amateur' rule. I don't think so.

Why does this look like a well trodden road? :)
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fraught
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by fraught »

Mike Shaw wrote:I hadn't checked the rules close enough to realise that the phrase " the film must be made without professional assistance" was a part of the deal. That is patently archaic ... and I agree, that somehow, 'not made for profit, made for pleasure' or some such phraseology should replace it.
Hmmm... i do see a problem.

Ok, let's take for example the film Batman : Dead End. An amazing piece of work, made by professionals at a cost of $30,000 to the director Sandy Collora. Prasied by the likes of Kevin Smith and Alex Ross, and hailed as one of the best Fan Films ever made. But it was all done for the love, and not for the cash.

So if you're saying that the rules should state the film has to be made for the love and not the money, then that would allow films made by professionals, using professional equipment and techniques, professional actors, etc... to be entered. When you compare these works to someone who shot a production with their family camcorder and their friends... they may just pale in comparisson.

That's not to say that someone with no professional help or equipment can't make a film as good... but you have to think that the chances of doing well are greatly reduced. It would also put off the very people you want to encourage, from entering.

I remember, way back in my youth, entering the IAC's LIFVF (1992 or 1993 i believe). I came to London and sat in one of the many rooms showing the films waiting for my piece of work to show. There was a large number of Youth entries, and one particular piece had some really good camera work and effects in it. Then suddenly i recognised one of the guys on screen... it was a (slightly) famous child actor from a show on ITV. His film won an award for the camera work, which to me looked like he had been using some equipment from the TV company he worked for (it was packed full of Crane Shots and Steadicam shots). ANYWAY... i don't wish to relive the anger that swelled in me as a tetchy teenager... but i was put off from entering after that. I found it hard to think that i could compete in a competition against people who had access to equipment that gave them the results that got them the awards. That was my experience anyway... and although it did put me off a bit. I did stick with the IAC, and i'm still here... you lucky people! ;-)

I was under the impression that the IAC was setup to help those that sought to improve themselves in the film making art. To help Amateurs. I know we all hate the term (me included)... but surely that's what we all are?

Check out the definition of the word 'Amateur', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur, it certainly gives me a warmer feeling after reading that... and perhaps maybe a want to learn to love it again...? :)
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Dave Watterson
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Dave Watterson »

Check out the relevant parts of the rules for BIAFF 2010:
(We await formal approval of the rules for 2011, but they are likely to be the same.)

They begin: "The competition is only open to bona fide amateur film makers. "

In the numbered rules the first item is:

"1. This competition is restricted to films made for entirely non-commercial purposes, by individuals and groups working solely for pleasure. Any sponsorship must be used only to cover production costs and the expenses of the production team and actors, and not for paid assistance from video professionals, either for filming or post-production (apart from the making of copies). If it is discovered, either before or after making any award, that the film has been offered for sale, used for any other commercial purpose or has otherwise infringed these requirements, the organisers will have the right to disqualify it, revoke the awards and reclaim any prizes. Sale of copies and / or exhibition to paying audiences will not be permissible, except for entries concerning the activities of bona fide charities, and where all the proceeds from any video sales and exhibition are given to that charity. The IAC and BIAFF logos may not be used in connection with any film without express permission from the organisers."

I put the bold and underline on for emphasis. The clumsy feel of the long paragraph is because it was an attempt to meet the outcry raised partly on this forum about one entrant selling copies of his film on his website.

The debate is very much real and live - for IAC, most other national federations and UNICA itself. But let's start from the rules above rather than memories ...

Dave
Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Dave beat me to the punch with his answer, which helps to clarify the rules.

The whole problem arises because we have competitions in the first place: my own purpose for entering a competition is to hopefully get far enough for my effort to be shown to new audiences (at festivals) and, believe it or not, to get the judges comments. I know I am an amateur and even amateurish, so look for any constructive advice on improving what I do. Winning something is also part of the challenge, but not the driving force.

Watching movies made by the pros is part of the learning curve for me.

It is deemed 'unfair' for 'amateurs' to compete with 'professionals'.

Where does one draw the line though? I worked as a creative in advertising ... and was paid for skills - writing commercials - that I now try to draw upon when making my own movies. I don't think I could be called a pro film maker by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe films should be 'weighted' according to the (professional) skills of the maker - so poor old Steven Spielberg, when he makes an 'amateur' movie, has to work twice as hard to compete.

But - we all have skills of one kind or another - which could give an advantage in one area or another during the film making process. But as long as the film isn't sold for profit ...

The 'problem' maybe is that we have to 'compete'. But that is the nature of what we are and do: we compete to see how we stand among others doing the same sort of thing - for example athletes compete to see how fast they run, or how far or high they jump compared with others. Can they improve, are they best?

One assumes that the professionals have been trained to do what they do so well. But - surely some inherent abilities must have been there at the outset (isn't that why they chose their profession?).

We all gain experience (hopefully) as we progress. Should those who have been doing it for a long time - and have gained obvbious skills - be compared against those just starting ?

So - on that thought, maybe we ought to weight or categorise the competitions according to how many years their creator has been making films?

From Dave's post, it seems professional film makers can make films for our competitions, as long as they're not made for commercial reasons, and professional people can be employed during the film-making process - as long as they aren't paid.

What happens though, if a film so made becomes very popular and lots of people want to buy a copy?

Just thought I'd throw another pebble in the pool!
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fraught
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by fraught »

Excellent responses guys... lots to talk about.


So what is a "bona fide amateur film maker"?

An amateur film maker is someone who makes films for the love and not the profit. But what makes them a bona fide amateur film maker? Do they have to prove they've had no professional training nor have worked in the industry for pay in some way?

It's always been a tricky subject, and i've no idea how to get the right answer for a more balanced approach.

To me... an Amateur film is something that is made by people who do not do it for a living. Hobby'ists if you will. The fact that a film is sold, to me doesn't make the film Professional. If those who made it, are not trained professionals, then to me the film sits in the Amateur category.
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Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

... made by people who do not do it for a living.
Ah! If only that were the criteria!

We (a small group) are (very slowly) making a film about the early years of an author (now deceased), which we believe shaped the person they became. Considerable interest has been shown in the project, with quite a few requests for a copy when it is finished.

We will obviously have to have them reproduced - assuming it is worthy enough of course.

We have already said to the author's daughter that any money the film makes over and above reproduction costs will be donated to a specific, related charity. Costs in making the film do not come into that equation at all. (But we have received a 'donation' to help cover some of the costs). Because it will be sold, we will probably not be able to enter our effort into any competitions.
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fraught
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by fraught »

I believe there is a clause regarding charity.... so you might be alright. ;-)
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Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Yes - but I believe it states that the film has to be made about or on behalf of that charity - ours isn't either of those...
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fraught
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by fraught »

Hmmm... so where would my film 'Overtime' stand? We premiered the film and sold tickets to raise money for Charity. We didn't really sell the film, but we did charge people to come and see it. We also did make the film about or on behalf of the charity.... :-/
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Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

There's the thing - you made it for and on behalf of a charity.

Our film is to try to explain the behaviour of someone with perhaps a poor personal reputation, by simply recording the facts about the early years, plain and simple without bias or opinions. So people can maybe understand. Or not.

No charity involved. Except if we do have to copy it and sell it - all profits will go to a designated charity.

My guess is that shuts us out of competitions. But it has been an education, so nothing is lost.
Michael Slowe
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Michael Slowe »

One of my films is being screened by a Sky channel (280 called Horse & Country) next Tuesday at 9.30. Does that make me a professional? Surely not and just to make certain I 'm not getting paid! Actually I tried to get them to pay the IAC (as a charitable donation) but they wouldn't do it.

Plenty of IAC members have had DVD's of films sold on behalf of charities and even though some of you aren't happy about this it certainly must be within the BIAFF rules since the film makers are not benefiting from any sales. Come on, it's pretty obvious when someone is a professional, don't let's quibble about using pro actors and proper kit. After all we want decent films at our festivals don't we?
Brian Saberton
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Brian Saberton »

Well said Michael, I absolutely agree with you. Personally I'd also be happy to see Mike's film in competition. Sometimes we worry too much!
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Mike Shaw

Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Great!! Naturally I concur!!

Hopefully, next year, Q2 then ... (if we can finish filming this year!!)
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Dave Watterson
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Re: It really is time!!!!

Post by Dave Watterson »

Most forum readers will know I am in favour of getting the best possible films into the top competitions like BIAFF, Guernsey Lily and UNICA. We need to see the best so that we all have something to aim for.

But we must never lose sight of the vast majority of non-commercial film makers, the club members, the lone workers, the students, the teenagers and pre-teens, the pensioners ... whose aim is not to be the best, but to make the kind of films they want to make. They can all too easily feel left out ... hence the occasional muttering at awards shows that "these are not our sort of films".

I suspect that what is behind the anti-professional arguments is often a desire to leave the realms of art films - to which the best n-c work belongs - and return to family films, holidays, simple comedies and straightforward hobby documentaries.
-Dave
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