FVM latest Issue - amateur

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Peter Copestake
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FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Peter Copestake »

Hallo there, Gerald,

If you take a look at the fine print on your IAC membership card you will find that we have not dropped the wordamateur. And a good thing too in my opinion but I'm not going on about it - MUCH!

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Dave Watterson
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Dave Watterson »

For those who may be puzzled by this message, some back story.

In the IAC magazine, Film & Video Maker, some letter writers had mentioned the issue of the word "amateur" when talking about our hobby. One view is that it is positive - a long-established term meaning someone who does the work for love rather than money. The opposing view is that it is negative, because the term is now synonymous with low quality work, quite the opposite of what we all strive to achieve.

In the current issue Gerald Mee explains that some years ago he proposed that we be known as "IAC - the Film & Video Institute" and that this was adopted and has been used since. That formula avoids the word "amateur" though it continues use of the word "Institute" which bothers some people.

So Peter in his post was reminding us that the word "amateur" has not completely vanished from our organisation.
- Dave

PS Film & Video Maker is only available to members of the IAC. Clubs which are members usually make their copy available to club members. If you want to get your own copy every second month, go to http://www.theiac.org.uk/central/member.htm and join us.
ned c
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by ned c »

OK Peter let's have another discussion about the use of the word "amateur" and its significance in the world of non-commercial films. In the film world the word amateur means "of poor quality, careless, bad" and is subtitled on shots that are used in news programs to differentiate them from the often equally lousy "professional" material.

In the amateur club world there are often complaints about the difficulty of recruiting young people, a look at most photographs in FMV shows groups of white haired men, very few women, very few young people. Why?

It is not because young people do not make movies, they do, in huge quantities but see no connection between themselves and amateur movie makers. They are simply "film makers" or "movie makers" if you prefer; they have no use for the traditional club inhabited by people old enough to be their grand parents with nothing but contempt for their style of movie making; but they do need a central organization that can represent their ambitions and in my view the IAC is a basis for this. But not as an Amateur Institute; well done to remove amateur from the title but it has to be exorcised from everywhere else along with Institute. The IAC needs to adapt to this new world or become extinct; I believe that it should adapt as it has much to offer. I know, all very well coming from across the Atlantic but all the evidence suggests that the N American amateur movement is now in terminal decline and I do not want to see this happen in Europe (does the UK admit to being part of Europe now?).

Amateur clubs everywhere are in decline; they have become centers for geriatric movie makers; to have tea and biscuits, watch a holiday film or two, compare cameras and computers. Yes, I am being provocative but convince me that the traditional amateur world is vibrant and growing with new young blood and people lined up to share the management responsibilities and I will announce myself an amateur!

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Stephen
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Stephen »

I agree entirely with you on this one ned...

When speaking to potential members (especially younger peeps) they do seem to wince when you mention the word amateur. It does have a certain stigma attached to it.

This should not be taken as negative blow to all the fantastic work done by the likes of the IAC, regional groups, clubs and individuals who give their knowledge and time freely for the cause.

But it is time to seriously look at the image that is portrayed.


The way in which we describe ourselves does matter a great deal in keeping with the way our language has changed over the years, and any step no matter how small, to help keep pace with the changing times, can only help.

Yes, young peeps do have the Tinternet with Yootoob, vimeo etc and they can attract the comments on their uploaded films from millions of people, throughout the world... why should they bother to come outside on a cold damp night (like tonight!) and visit a clubroom full of errr.... 'old' peeps?..... I'll tell you why I do it... the knowledge and interaction you can get there is second to none !!!
oh yes... one other small thing... I just love watching my films projected onto our widescreen, HD format projection equipment in full blown stereo ..... hey yootoob you have some catching up to do !!!


So why do young peeps trudge out to night school, college, the cinema or the pub ?? ... (not necessaryly in that order!) to learn?... to be entertained .... to socialise..... the Tinternet can only do that in a limited way.

My club does all that in spadesfull! - that's the message we must get across...


the future is still bright for our organisation .... it will survive...


we just need to keep tweaking it!!
Stephen

Film making is not a matter of Life and Death
It's much more important than that.
Peter Copestake
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Peter Copestake »

OK, so you haven't looked at your membership cards before replying!
They say 'Holders of this card are amateurs...'
I am NOT going on about it, just saying that our cards still say we are 'A's (rude word, to some of you, not repeated)!
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ned c
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by ned c »

Yes, I have looked at my membership card and yes it says amateur and has a "let out" clause saying I will get "Special permission" if I use material commercially which seems to suggest that sometimes I may not be an amateur. It also raises the question "can a professional movie maker be a member of an amateur organization?" If the answer is "no" then all those who make wedding films; special interest films; sell their productions on the Internet for payment please leave now.

The movie making world has changed from the 1930s when the IAC was founded, it has changed dramatically since the arrival of the completely digital work flow. The point I am trying to make is that the IAC and organizations like it that cling to a past paradigm will be marginalized and eventually become extinct. I also believe that the IAC is an organization with tremendous potential and to realize that potential it needs to adjust itself to a new world. The word "amateur" is just one part of the problem the IAC faces if it is to widen its base to include the younger movie makers who do need a central organization that looks to their interests as non-commercial movie makers.

I believe there is a potential format for local organizations where movie making can flourish across a wide range of ages and experience, I am a member of such an organization, you will be able to read about it in the January/February issue of the AMPS Newsletter.

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Dave Watterson
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Dave Watterson »

IAC is a company limited by guarantee and a registered charity. Its formal, registered name remains "The Institute of Amateur Cinematography" so it is not surprising that membership cards, the international competition name and the major international British festival name all include the word "amateur".

I am with Ned in believing that the organisation has to change or it will continue to wither away and will eventually die off. Frankly I am sometimes surprised it has survived so long as it has.

I am NOT condemning IAC wholesale or writing off its achievements over close to 80 years. But I do share the belief that Ned, Stephen and others have expressed that we should change to make IAC more attractive to younger people ... by which I mean anyone under 50. Changing a name is a small enough step and if that helps we should do it. But much more also needs to be reconsidered.

For example our major annual events are both residential weekends designed to appeal to our current supporters of mainly retired people who can afford the time and cost of attending. To attend BIAFF 2010 for example will cost £180 for a single person staying two nights at the hotel and attending all the events. Add the cost of travel and it becomes a considerable outlay. Could we try other venues and trade off some of the comfort of a hotel for a reduction in price? Or even separate the screenings and events from accomodation altogether?

Anyone who studies language knows that words change their meaning over time. "Amateur" now does not mean what it did when the organisation was founded. I'm quite happy to use the initials "IAC" and the diamond logo without specifying them. Who cares what "B & Q" or "C & A" stand for? The brands are in the initials.
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Willy
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:
I am with Ned in believing that the organisation has to change or it will continue to wither away and will eventually die off. Frankly I am sometimes surprised it has survived so long as it has.

- Dave
Seperate category
Of course I agree with you Ned and with the other ones, but I also think that you still want a seperate category for film students and also for feature films, animation films, etc... which is very positive. This discussion stopped too soon on this forum. Nobody can tell me that I am against young people. On the contrary. Douglas Boswell, Tim Verschaeren, Samuel Faict ... They are/were young filmmakers in their twenties and I encouraged them to enter national and international film festivals.

Losing hair
But please, I hope that films made by youngsters will not be promoted in an extreme way. The films that are good are good. The ones that are less good are less good. It's as simple as that. In Belgium our umbrella organisation sent me 4-5 mails to ask me to enter their "unique" festival in Ghent. I did after the fourth or fifth mail. Later on it appeared to be a festival only to promote youngsters. I am 63. I am an old man with a white moustache. I am not bald, but I lost some hair the last few months. That's what my wife says to tease me.

Terminal decline
Quite a lot of money was spent on that festival in Ghent. And the audience ? Most of them were retired people. Yes, I am very pessimistic. Young people only want to attend an international festival to receive awards and certificates in order to promote themselves or their films. That's it. Do not expect that they will come back the following year. I am almost sure that we won't see any of the young winners in 2009 again in Bedford ! One of the reasons is the thing that Dave has said. Only retired people can afford it. It has become too expensive. Something must be done on it and it is urgent. Also the European amateur movement is in terminal decline. It is like that in Belgium, in Holland, and in the UK which of course is also part of Europe. Look at the chalk cliffs of Dover and Calais... and the chapter in history books about William of Normandy who conquered Britain.

I am younger than Paul Mc Cartney
I already told you : in Guernsey I had a chat with a young British filmmaker. He doesn't understand that clubs for non-professional filmmakers are essential. Soon that chat turned into a tête-à-tête chat with someone else who probably felt embarrassed and who doesn't belong to my age-group.

Of course I understand ... we can show our films on internet nowadays and we can ask friends what they think about our productions. Let's express it in a positive way : I am a young sixtier. I am not older than Steven Spielberg, Paul Mc Cartney ... but I still remember that my parents took a chair to sit in front of their house and to have a chat with their neighbours. In 1958, the year of the World Exhition in Brussels, my parents bought their first TV-set. All my friends and even their own parents came to our house and watch TV. A short time later they had their own TV-set We didn't see them anymore, but we still went to the cinema to see "West Side Story", "Spartacus", "Ben Hur", "Un homme et une femme" etc... in order to sit on the last row and then it stopped. Now we can see everything on our computers. We can make films on them and ... we can even organise U-Tube festivals ... Individualising has become stronger than socialising... That phenomenon can't be changed anymore.

We are in decline !
Maybe I am in a dark period now. When we were together with the Haywards Heath Moviemakers one of them said to me : "Are they all members of your club ?" I said : "Yes, of course". "They look very young", he replied. A few days later my best friend, who is only 51, heard that he has lung cancer because he worked in an asbestos factory in the eighties... Ludo was the best generation link for Samuel Faict, who is 27, but the latter will leave us in one or two years after his studies at the film school. I can feel it. In spite of all the things we do or have done for him. Last year I took him to Guernsey. Some weeks ago I drove him to a cultural centre. Distance : 80 miles ! He is against cars. He is for public transport. That's why he has not bought a car yet. I fear that my "young" club will be in total decline after one year.

Yes, we are geriatric movie makers !
I like the thing you have written about centres for geriatric movie makers, Ned. : to have tea and biscuits, watch a holiday film or two, compare cameras and computers. It is brave of you to say so. You don't belong to the silent majority and you are not provocative, Ned. You just tell the truth. This should be done more on this forum without blaming or hurting someone because we are all volunteers and hobbyists and have positive intentions. Not only on this forum but also in our clubs old folks compare cameras and computers, but alas they don't show any of their creativity. They only make holiday films. They only show buildings, streets and squares, monuments, landscapes, sometimes without any people, travelogues without any atmosphere in them. I am a member of two clubs. Last week we didn't know what to do in the Antwerp club. The chairman took one of his holiday films. We already had to look at it a few months ago. Maybe he forgot. I think he was the only one who enjoyed that film about a village in the Somme area. It was very boring.

Young filmmakers are more creative !
Now, let's fight against it, dear friends. Ask young people to join our clubs and give them some independance. Tell them that they can meet their own friends on a different day but in your clubhouse. Give them all facilities. Offer them breezers instead of coffee or tea. Ask them to enter festivals, organised by other young people. And their films will be judged only by young people. I already tried it. But there is one thing we must admit and this is not irony : young filmmakers are more creative than most old filmmakers. This is something we must appreciate. Old folks are often too old to feel creativity in young films.

Remembrance Day
Today is Remembrance Day. In Britain more is done to remember all those young people who died in the First World War. I am happy that I made two films about the Great War.
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Michael Slowe »

Wow, this really is the nitty gritty on 'Amateur' film making and I agree with every word - because there hasn't been a dissenting voice! I have to confess that when discussing film making with people involved in the professional world I fight shy of 'amateur' and use the term suggested by Ned - that of 'non commercial' film maker. Recently I was asked to make a documentary on the shooting of a feature film being shot in North London to appear on their DVD as an 'extra' (for no payment I hasten to add!). During the shoot I was regarded as a professional by cast and crew and I freely admit I did not call myself an amateur. The resultant film was shown to cast and crew in a cinema and I was relieved to note that the film seemed to be a success and they still didn't enquire as to my status. My point obviously is that had I been described as an amateur I don't think that I would have been accepted quite so readily.

So, the discussion concerning our personal label and the label of the only organisation that represents our interests, is critical. All that has been said about young people is spot on. They are all making films, many brilliant, many awful and the IAC must get them into its orbit or be doomed. By all means change the name, offer easier viewing to the BIAFF films by using cinemas or the like without the necessity of staying in hotels and by being more 'professional' in our attitude to the art of film making.

I do not think the web and utube are the way to see films, one only has to be in a cinema for five minutes to realise that and clubs do a great job in presenting our work in the proper way. Getting youngsters to the clubs and BIAFF is the problem.
Peter Copestake
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Peter Copestake »

Good of all of you to reply. I really have given up the argument! I daresay you are right! I was only pointing out the fact that our card still says we are amateur. It need only say that the person holding the card will not profit from the privileges being asked for and not mention the A word at all. I would not be upset!

There are going to be more retired people though and they can help to keep a group alive. They will not necessarily have more cash - our income is going down, not even staying level and, frankly, we, personally, are more worried about being able to finance our really old age than whether or not we can go to festivals.

However, after a good deal of effort on my part, our local council has recognised Pendle Movie Makers to the extent that they emailed a 'media invitation' to me last week so that D (my wife) and I could record the Remembrance Day service at Nelson's new war memorial. When we got there we found that our passes were brought to us, we could have a position that gave us a better view than the 'media', could film all the service whereas the media had to restrict their stills (we are too small a borough to interest TV) to the arrival of the VIP guest, the Duke of Kent, and when we were waiting later for him to unveil a plaque in Nelson's new Arts/Culture centre, we were introduced to HRH by the Leader of the Council as a remarkable couple for the way we have been recording local activities.

So in our very small pond our being amateurs is not being held against us.

Keep filming - that's all that matters.

Regards,

Peter.
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Brian Saberton
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Brian Saberton »

Just an idle thought but since the purpose of the statement on the membership card is to confirm our bona fides as non professional film makers perhaps the use of the word "amateur" may be an advantage because if our image is as bad as some people seem to think then surely the jobsworth numpties who try and prevent people from shooting video in public places will conclude that it's ok to let us go ahead because our films will be rubbish anyway.

If they see the word "commercial" even with "non" stuck in front of it their minds might conflate this into something entirely different.

As I say, just an idle thought.
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ned c
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by ned c »

I am presently in the midst of two large editing projects but it’s good to take a break and read what is happening on the Forum.

The IAC has two ready built programs that need some development and promotion and form the basis of a strong organization.

1. The music licensing program. As the owners of copyright become more protective then n-c movie makers need a central organization to negotiate on their behalf and make legal access to music available. With the advent of the Internet and different rules of copyright developing then we need this help more than ever.

2. The BIAFF, probably one of the best known n-c competitions in the world but in my opinion in need of overhauling. I agree with Willy that students are a separate category and need a separate judging panel but are an essential part of our future. Comparing films in a competitive setting is difficult and I believe that this is best done by genre; documentary, travel, narrative, fan films, experimental etc. Create enough categories to ensure that apples are compared with apples. In my opinion the value of the judge’s comments is tremendous and well worth continuing, time consuming, demanding but so valuable. One of the problems many of us face is knowing just what people are making now and what is winning; we can’t continue to attend Festivals as the costs soar for both the organizers and the attendees. Circulating DVDs of the winning entries would be a great extra as part of the benefits of membership. This is also an opportunity to excise “amateur” from the BIAFF title.

I know I have been here before but I really believe that printed, mailed journals are fast becoming things of the past. The costs are now becoming prohibitive and as the Internet speeds up and expands we can access journals that are more than just printed words and pictures, video can be included, sound and demonstrations of equipment and methods. Later this month I am taking part in a Sony Webinair with a Virtual Trade Show; is this the “club” of the future or perhaps a part of it?

What of clubs? The traditional club is a comforting place for the elderly (I probably fall into that category) and perhaps it does have a future attracting retirees and making no attempt to attract the “young” (apparently sub 50) a strategy that may work and prolong the life of clubs.

As Michael pointed out we are all film makers and our status is up to us but it is not important.

ned c
Peter Copestake
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Peter Copestake »

Ned says:-

Create enough categories to ensure that apples are compared with apples. In my opinion the value of the judge’s comments is tremendous and well worth continuing, time consuming, demanding but so valuable. One of the problems many of us face is knowing just what people are making now and what is winning; we can’t continue to attend Festivals as the costs soar for both the organizers and the attendees. Circulating DVDs of the winning entries would be a great extra as part of the benefits of membership.


I agree; what about circulating the judges comments? Perhaps we could then see what they do and understand their awards.

Peter C.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Dave Watterson »

The idea of circulating judges' comments is worth a thread to itself so I have begun one.
See "Should we circulate judges' comments?"

Dave
Brian Saberton
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Re: FVM latest Issue - amateur

Post by Brian Saberton »

It's a bit sad that some of the comments on this thread seem to me to be bordering on being ageist and I don't think that is what we should be about. I've talked about this before on other threads, but for me film-making is a creative activity that can be done by anyone at any age and I don't think that any particular age group has a monopoly on imagination. I would concede that young film makers tend to know no fear, which could be an advantage to them, but that would be true in any field of human activity. I attended the Guernsey Lily this year and from viewing the films there was no way that I could guess the age of the authors any more than I could identify which type of camera they were using. Also I don't think that segregating films in competitions based on the age of the film maker would be particularly helpful - surely we should all be competing on equal terms.

As to clubs being the preserve of the elderly, for years there has been a problem in all kinds of community based groups and organisations in attracting new members. As most of you know I'm involved in still photography and my own club struggled to get new people in for some time. However in the last couple of years we have found, along with other clubs, that new people are now coming along (we had two new members join last night) but what is interesting is that they tend to be in the 30 -40 age bracket and their interest has been stimulated by the popularity of digital photography. As an aside, we also need to remember that the IAC also caters for audio visual workers many of whom are joining so that they can access the music copyright scheme. There is a massive potential to attract new members from the AV world as the availability of inexpensive software for creating sequences is generating a lot of interest. To emphasise this point I was at a recent AV event organised by the Scottish Photographic Federation who are actively promoting membership of the IAC so lets not forget that it isn't all about making movies.

The arguments and pleas about the need to attract "young people" are as old as the hills but quite honestly I don''t think we can afford to be that choosey. Whoever comes along to join our clubs should be welcomed with open arms! A final thought is that I hope that if any youngsters do join our clubs they will be willing to volunteer to take on the necessary jobs such as secretary, chair or treasurer - or is that a forlorn hope?
Brian Saberton
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