AFVM

[fraught]

So... thought i'd start a thread about your thoughts and feelings regarding AFVM.

I have been 'unhappy' with it for some time now. The articles within seem bland, and aimed at/written by amateur film makers who have just retired, and are looking to spend their cash on High End equipment. I know this is just a generalisation and is not a completely accurate view of the readership, etc... it's just my perception from what i've seen and read.

I've been a member of the IAC since i was about 14-15 years old, i'm now 36. If i'm honest, i've seen very little change in that time. Infact, the only change i've seen is for the worse! There used to be a Youth column in the magazine, which i haven't seen for a long while. I can't remember the last time i saw an article that was aimed at the film making youth out there and there is a lot of them out there! I know, because i regularly see their work posted on web video streaming sites and forums.

AFVM needs an update! And fast! More dynamic layouts, fresh ideas, and articles aimed at people who want to make films for fun, and not just as a retiring hobby.

Over to you now... lets get some good feedback here... you never know, someone with clout at the IAC might actually be listening! They certainly don't seem to be at the moment, as this forum is never mentioned or promoted in AFVM!

[Brian Saberton]

Sorry Fraught but as one of the writers in FVM I disagree with your comments concerning the magazine which I believe has developed considerably under Garth's editorship. Personally I think it's a great magazine and a credit to the IAC. Garth can only print what he receives and please remember that he doesn't have a squad of helpers to put the magazine together - he has to do it all himself which must be a huge amount of work and we are fortunate that he is willing to do it. Of course it's all voluntary and none of us is paid for our contributions. As one of the regular columnists I can say that writing six full page articles a year might not seem a lot but each one does take quite a bit of time and thought not only to compile but also to try and come up with something fresh each time. I don't know why the youth column is no longer in the mag. but my guess is that there is currently no-one willing to write it. Obviously I can't speak for Garth but I'm sure he would welcome a contribution if someone were willing to make the committment to write a regular column.

[Graeme Webb]

I can't remember the last time I saw an article that was aimed at the film making youth out there and there is a lot of them out there! I know, because i regularly see their work posted on web video streaming sites and forums.

Serious young film makers that I know are not really interested in organised institutions or joining video clubs and certainly don't view film making as a social thing or hobby. All without exception utilise the internet for showing their work and frequent the various online agencies joining loose collaborations to make films and then moving onto another collaboration honing their skills, networking and so on. There are plenty of film festivals out there without having to join the IAC or a club. They are working on films with relatively high production values and with people who are passionate and commited to the film making process.

I didn't renew my subscription this year for several reasons one of them is echoed in Fraughts comments. I am not denigrating the guys who write or put the magazine together or the IAC, I imagine that it is very diffulcult when all the input is voluntary, but I feel that this maybe part of the problem. I have no answer to this. I try to be even handed and open minded in these things but quite frankly I have cringed in the past at some of the things that I have read in the magazine and also experienced at club level and at festivals .....and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

The institute and the local clubs have to find away to embrace both hobbyist and serious filmmaker. As I mentioned above I certainly don't have an answer, debate is healthy, although I feel that time may resolve all.

G

[Mike Shaw]

Those who decry AFVM would indeed do well to remember that there is no payment for articles, and that therefore its content depends on the willingness of members to write freely. Perhaps those who think that it is 'incorrectly aimed' etc, would make their point stronger by writing what they consider to be suitable articles?

I think Garth is doing an excellent job, especially as he is relying on volunteers to provide content.

[fraught]

Its a fair point that Garth can only put together things that he is given.

The problem is it's difficult for people to just decide to write an article off the top of their head. The magazine needs more direction. You need people to control the content, by suggesting what content is needed and finding willing people to participate.

I have no idea on how many members the IAC has and what the age ranges are. But someone has, and someone should be emailing or writing to them asking them to come up with some ideas/articles.

All i'm trying to point out is that the magazine should be aimed at all ages and skills, yet it doesn't appear to be.

Of course, now that i have said all this... i will be putting my money where my mouth is and writing an article for the magazine.

[FILM THURSO]

At Film Thurso we've used the most affordable equipment we could get our hands on. Money has never been our most ready asset but yet the 24 super 8 cameras of various specs, the three 16mm, cameras, the 35mm movie camera and the three 35mm SLRS, the Q-dos 3D (red/blue) lens and 9 anamorphic lenses have served us well. The Elmo GS1200 (ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY ELMO!) and our 2 video projectors have enabled us to present our films on bigger and better screens. The eleven 16mm projectors, the 9.5mm projector and the Kalee 12 35mm projector all do a great job. Our screen which is only 13ft wide will eventually be replaced with a 25ft Scope screen. The two mini-DV cameras have done really well amassing several days worth of raw footage since we first went into that field. The recent move to trying out the 3:1 ratio is also going well. Most of our cine equipment was bought second hand. Our digital equipment was all new but definately not the high end of the market. Our group constantly advises film makers that the best top end equipment is not what makes a good movie. A high defination picture with excellent color and edited on the most advanced software won't save a crap film!
Even getting the use of real cinemas has never been a problem, we simply ask and remarkably get what we want from each cinema!
I have noticed that the club is dominated by older members writings in the mag, no bad thing as experience of age can be very helpful but it has to be said that younger movie makers are not attracted to this organisation and we must remeber we shouldn't expect them to be.
Clubs throughout the UK are also in the same position so we can say with certainty it's not a fault with the IAC, it's just a fact of life.
Youngsters are not interested in joining clubs when in this day and age they have enough friends about them to get their films made. Video editing is standard in all pcs with Windows Movie Maker being right there whenever you buy a pc.
We have to remember that the origin of any club has been in a day when certain hobbies and persuites were expensive and not so readily available to the common masses. Today we live in a well off society by comparison and even if you don't have a video camera you are very likely to know someone who does. Groups and clubs in any interest were set up not just to bring like-minded fellows together but also to enable wider access to those who could at least afford the memebership fee(as well as- "if your face fits").
When you look at Film Thurso's activities take to mind that everything we have done has NOT been assisted by the IAC although it is that lovely copyright clearance scheme that has enabled greater use music in our films yet we were not stuck without it for knowing as many musicians as we do.
It has to be said that the key area in which our film work really struggles is the same one that affects every other club- getting a cast, only worse up here for a low population with a huge apathy (paranoia) factor. There is nothing an IAC membership can do to sort this problem. Porn is the only area where we could get a cast but the people willing to do it don't have the looks for any screen size! The missnoma of amateur film makers being budding porn barons doesn't help either.
Ultimately the ability to make movies and show them today is so wide spread that clubs have little if anything to offer an individual. Advice, tips and information are readily available on the internet thru forums and video sites like youtube. I have viewed some brilliant stuff by young film makers who are simply working with their friends to get the job done. They all readily help on each others' projects and amass considerable contribution to the amateur film industry. The are some extraordinary talents out there.
Film Thurso makes very low budget movies and shows them at local venues as well as main stream cinemas and our festival, "The Big Gig" is open to everyone. The IAC is a great organisation and we should do everything we can to promote it but we must understand we are up against competition and our website is our most important asset whilst the magazine is also useful to the clubs. No longer is the IAC the biggest film organisation for newcomers to the industry.
It is this website that needs attention. The site is our worldwide face and it is like the magazine lacking in features and articles about young film makers. Film Thurso's work is not restricted to membership, you don't have to be a member of our group to get our support (or opinion) for your projects and we readily fasilitate screening of movies for non-members.
This website should go in a similar direction and interject at least 45% content on non-IAC film makers with special emphasis on the work of younger producers (I mean school age and up). It is common on other sites to include non-member contribution because it promotes organisations in multipul directions. If you write an article about anyone they will tell their friends and collegues about it and where it can been seen. Additionally they will promote the article through their online networks such as bebo or myspace. The trick in promotion is to get your name to appear in as many places as possible hopefully with a clickable link. Our festival isn't just mentioned on the IAC site, it's on our own and we have 3 bebo groups for it and a myspace as well as memebrships of other festival promotion sites. Our festival promotion and our website also uses the IAC logo to promote the organisation. Meanwhile the IAC site is only here and aimed only at it's membership. The IAC needs to be in more places such as bebo, facebook, and myspace. Provide multipul web locations to find the IAC and more people will become interested because there are still people out there who haven't heard of the IAC and who will find this organisation useful.

[Dave Watterson]

CforT - wow! You have summed up so many things, so well in that posting.

You are right that we should try to expand into social networking groups - though as a member of Facebook, MySpace, Bebo and Twitter myself it seems to me that these are all designed for individuals and the various organisations that have a presence on those sites look a bit like a vicar in a party hat.

[By the way:South Essex Film Makers (formerly Westcliff) do have a presence on Facebook and MySpace - not too vicarish!]

FVM only goes to IAC members and clubs, most of its readers are late middle age or retired. There is a case for saying it is catering to its audience by having articles and pictures of the same age groups. The function of any coverage of the younger scene would be to stimulate fresh thinking in the readership, rather than recruitment.

There are other problems with the magazine, some of which are being touched on in this thread. I don't believe an editor of any publication or website should wait for articles to come in ... they must always be seeking out potential contributors, twisting arms, making phone calls, being proactive. Actually laying out and publishing the material is only part of the job.

The IAC website does have a vast amount of material from non-members ... look at the "Making of..." series for example. The "Film Maker's Journey" series for beginners is written by an Australian who only joined IAC after we had started publishing the articles ... The website has always remained, like this forum, open to anyone interested in our hobby. That's why we include listings of clubs that are not IAC members too. Sorry, as Assistant Webmaster, I don't want to go all defensive - that's the natural reaction to any criticism, as evidenced by other writers in this thread too.

To answer an earlier point from Fraught - there are about 1,600 individual members of IAC and around 265 clubs.

Dave

[billyfromConsett]

It might help get more news articles if the editors of the three areas gave an email address for themselves. A normal post box address means finding an envolope, a trip to a postbox, putting stamps on a letter - and it's more work that I can be bothered with.

I tried to put a news article in about what Newcastle ACA are doing, but the Northern news editor doesn't use email, so I emailed Garth Hope and enquiries at the IAC.

But after neither getting an acknowledgement from anybody, or my story published - though I've got to admit that I stopped looking after a few editions - I doubt I'll bother again.

Fraught has suggested a few things that would make him look at the mag, but without paid writers, those guides would have to be sourced from places - and that is maybe what should be looked at.

The other thing is that few in my club - but there are maybe 4 or 5 us - would like to know more about things like filming car chases, creative ways of doing drama better, camera techniques etc.

But the mag has to be written for the majority of its readers. So if sexy Julie Andrews is photographed in it, we have to cater for the masses.

I'd like to see a piece about Diana Rigg - she's got my interest!

[Brian Saberton]

I'm with you Billy re Diana Rigg.

Joking apart, anyone who has ever had anything to do with editing club newsletters or magazines will know how difficult it is to get contributions from people and no amount of cajoling or arm twisting will make any difference. (I speak from personal experience) The usual excuses are they can't write/haven't the time or don't have anything to say.

For Scottish Scene I have a few clubs who regularly send me information but for the others I have to get information on what they are doing by trawling web-sites, speaking to people or e mailing etc as I feel I have a responsibility, as far as I can, to reflect what is happening around all the clubs (including AV), even if they don't send me anything. For example, a year ago I spoke to one club who promised to send me some information and I'm still waiting.

Also, no matter what you do you can't please everybody all the time. The best that an editor can try and do is provide a reasonable balance of articles that will hopefully appeal to the majority. Another point is that we aren't professional writers, or trained journalists, so it is inevitable that some pieces are going to be a bit rough around the edges. Given all of that I think we get a pretty good standard of writing in FVM.

There have been a few comments in this thread about age. My response is: what has age got to do with it? Just because some people are longer in the tooth than others doesn't mean that they don't have a passion for films, film making or modern story telling techniques. There are plenty of examples in the world of professional cinema (Lord Richard Attenborough springs to mind) who are as passionate as they ever were as youngsters.

Rant over. I'm now going to lie down in a darkened room.

[fraught]

no matter what you do you can't please everybody all the time. The best that an editor can try and do is provide a reasonable balance of articles that will hopefully appeal to the majority.

The problem i see here is that there isn't a balance, which is why i started this thread. The latest issue of FVM is a prime example.

There have been a few comments in this thread about age. My response is: what has age got to do with it? Just because some people are longer in the tooth than others doesn't mean that they don't have a passion for films, film making or modern story telling techniques. There are plenty of examples in the world of professional cinema (Lord Richard Attenborough springs to mind) who are as passionate as they ever were as youngsters.

Age shouldn't be an issue... but after reading FVM, it just stands out like a sore thumb. It was almost like reading Film Making for members of SAGA. Just look at the group photo on Page 4!

It just appears to me that the IAC seems to have forgotten about the young people out there making films, and appears to be doing nothing to encourage membership in that age group.

Someone please prove me wrong!

[Mike Shaw]

I'd ask first, at what age does one stop being young?

On leaving the teens? The twenties? forties maybe? Fifties then?

I'm approaching my eighties - and still consider myself to be young.

What on earth has age got to do with anything? Someone at 80 can be just as enthusiastic as someone at 20.

At the club I belong to, there are members of all ages - including teenagers. But the majority are retired.

Why so? Probably because retired people have more time to explore their hobby (hobby is the operative word here). It is my experience that teenagers would rather be with their peer group, and most of those who are interested in videography have excellent facilities at their schools or on campus for shooting and making films, and film-making companions of their own age. I was asked by one such 'school' group to play a role (as an oldie) in one of their films - and was stunned at the excellent range of (expensive) equipment they had available.

But this wanders from the point that - 'the IAC has forgotten young people'. The IAC is a collective. If there are young people who do nothing to add their say and sway to the mix, then it is they who are doing the forgetting, or ignoring.

Seems to me that the vast majority of IAC members are NOT young people (i.e., under the age of ..???), and hence the IAC and FVM caters for the majority, and reflects the membership. I think that's the way most organisations work. Sure they'd love young members to be as committed.

So, for those who feel IAC and FVM doesn't cater for young members, I ask - why not start a young members section and magazine (like the regional magazines) aimed specifically at young people. It would indeed add a vibrant new dimension and arm to the IAC.

All it needs is someone (plural, of course) to get up and do it.

Aye, there's the rub. Seems the young ones want the oldies to do it for them.

So, I shan't hold my breath.

Now, back to my knitting. Pearl one, plain one...

[Willy]

We have spoilt our children

I agree with Brian and I understand Fraught. I am sure that I can find youngsters to contribute to FVM, but ... only if we can pay them for it. Thirty years ago we had two or three brass bands in our villages. They played music because they enjoyed it. They were not paid for it. Now it's all over. They only want to join professional bands and to be well-paid. It's also like that in filmmaking. It's very, very very difficult to find young filmmakers who are pure hobbyists... It's in Belgium like that. It's in Holland like that. It's in Britain like that. Writing articles in magazines without being paid ? Forget it ! We all belong to an older generation and we have spoilt our children. It's our own fault ! Maybe it will change in a few years. The economy is in decline. Social life is in decline ... That's history. Think of the Roman Empire ... After that came the dark Middle Ages and then ...

Grey-haired people in FVM

And please, there is no reason at all to criticize FVM, though it's good to have a discussion about it. The magazine is excellent. Congratulations, Garth ! All friends who are active on this forum should be members of the IAC.

In Belgium we also have a national magazine. Fantastic photographs in it, but nothing about filmmaking. Looks very professional, but it is printed by the services of our Ministry of Cultural Affairs.... And the photographs in it ? Grey-haired people ... Everywhere. People who are retired and who have fun in filmmaking and photography... Yes, in the latest issue there was a photograph of one pretty young lady. She was standing next to me. It was about a special event that took place some months ago : an amateur filmmaker (me) versus a professional filmmaker (Caroline). The Belgian IAC, called CvB, does its utmost to build bridges between old filmmakers and younger ones. Organizing such events is one of those attempts.

I am as young/old as Spielberg (62)
After all : what is age ? You can die at the age of 20. You can die at the age of 90. I am as old as Spielberg, but of course I am not as talented as Steven. So, you're right, Brian. Age is not important.

A corner for youngsters in FVM ? Yes, why not. Just try. I could ask Samuel, the 23 year old member of my club. But he is Belgian and his mother-tongue is French, but I am sure that his English is almost perfect. Come on, Samuel and young friends. Show us that we are wrong and that Fraught is right !

I think that Samuel, runner-up in Guernsey, has already written an article about his film "The Prey". Maybe it could be published in FVM. But I fear that Samuel is an exception. What do you think, Sammy ?

Interesting articles in FVM

In the latest issue of FVM you can read articles about how to make better fiction films (Ken Wilson), about lenses and other technical things (Tom Hardwick), about "The Power of Film" (Reg Lancaster), about Magix Movie edit Pro 14 (by Mike Shaw). How can you make FVM even more interesting ? Ken, Tom, Reg, Mike .... these are friends that I know. They are not in their twenties anymore, but I am sure they are more energetic (= younger) that many youngsters who are still in their twenties.

[billyfromConsett]

All it needs is someone (plural, of course) to get up and do it.

Aye, there's the rub. Seems the young ones want the oldies to do it for them.

Aye, blame us

It's on a slightly different topic, but symptomatic of our organisation's regular habit of looking in on itself, but the above remark had enough affect on my normal blood pressure for me to make this point:

But in my humble view, I'd say that younger people involved in our hobby care more about this hobby's future than the oldies.

I've see it in my club too, most people who enjoy our hobby couldn't give a monkeys if it's still around in 10 years time, and as such, give either very little time or none at all in active promotion into our communities.

If we don't promote ourselves at club level, it will have a knock-on effect with IAC membership. Maybe we've seen a glimpse of that already?

Let's all get ourselves back to being reasonable again - please- and admit that it's not easy to either modernise the editorial content, or even get a section of our mag for young people when the vast majority of our readers are over 60.

The website's had a revamp. Good. How can we find out what extra things that some of our members would like to read about in our mag, and er....maybe how we can start to give some of that?

[Mike Shaw]

But in my humble view, I'd say that younger people involved in our hobby care more about this hobby's future than the oldies

But not enough to do something about it?

I've see it in my club too, most people who enjoy our hobby couldn't give a monkeys if it's still around in 10 years time, and as such, give either very little time or none at all in active promotion into our communities.

That's not been my experience, either at my current club, or the one I belonged to before - the 'older' (as in 'ex') club has long made strident efforts to attract young people. The current club does have - and encourages - the younger membership. Yes the young ones are interested in film making. They're also interested in wooing, career building etc etc. Priorities.

... or even get a section of our mag for young people when the vast majority of our readers are over 60.

I disagree. It's very easy. All it needs is someone to do it Someone young who feels strong enough to introduce a 'junior' (very poor choice of words, I apologise truly) section. No point in having an oldie do it at all.

How can we find out what extra things that some of our members would like to read about in our mag, and er....maybe how we can start to give some of that?

Well one way is to ask the question - on this forum perhaps. A better, more positive question would be "What would you (youngsters?) like to see in FVM over and above current content?" rather than "Is FVM fit for purpose?" which is very negative to the point of being derogatory. Then, of course, having decided what additional (or replacement) content they would like to see, they have to offer that content.

Is Tom H an oldie? Where does oldie start?

I was brought up on the precept that if you want something done, do it, don't wait for someone else to do it. Here we have (apparently) young people asking for their own ideas and needs to be included in FVM. I say fine. Make it happen then.

I'm obviously far too old to know what you want.

Knit one, drop one...

[Brian Saberton]

Mike, I think you have pin pointed what has got my dander well and truly up about this thread namely the apparent negativity of the original question. Perhaps that wasn't the intention but it's how it came across to me and I feel it is being unfair towards Garth who works exceptionally hard to produce an excellent magazine. Garth's an approachable guy - if anyone has suggestions for the magazine why not speak to him directly and discuss it?

To return to the vexed question of age If I've learned anything over the years I've been involved in the amateur movie scene it's that there are no boundaries in film making and it is something that anyone from any walk of life can do at any age so why should age be such an issue? Maybe part of the reason why so few young people join clubs is that society itself has become compartmentalised with less and less interaction between young people and the rest of us. It's a shame but it's a problem that goes well beyond the doors of the IAC. Another point to ponder is that many young people seem to take up film-making in the hope of getting into the media industry and don't tend to stay in the non-commercial amateur sector all that long.

The clubs and the IAC have to get members from wherever they can; for pure financial reasons they can't afford to do otherwise. They can't, nor should they, discriminate against anyone for any reason including age so what are they supposed to do if the majority of new or existing members are in the upper age bracket? You can't turn people away, you can't have quotas. If we look at the post-teen age bracket, i.e. people pursuing their careers, the world of work is now so demanding and stressful that folk scarcely have the time to commune with their families let alone take up a hobby or join a club. It's hardly surprising therefore that membership of clubs/IAC etc tends to be in the upper age brackets.

But, here are a few words of encouragement. I am also involved in amateur photography and in my own club we have noticed in the last couple of years a definite upturn in interest with new members joining (and staying). Without exception they have been roughly in the 35 - 45 age bracket and what seems to be bringing them in is the upsurge in digital photography. The same has been happening in other clubs and if the trend continues it is very encouraging. It just shows that things can turn around. One of these days taking up a hobby might even become fashionable again and, dare I say it, even "cool"