The Cost of Film Making

[Dave Watterson]

People who worked with cine film remember the days when you counted the seconds of each shot carefully because film was such an expensive medium. One film maker told me that running 16mm was like having a sewing-machine on your shoulder stitching up pound notes as it clattered away. Video media : tape, disc, memory card - are all pretty cheap to use.

Our cameras and editing systems are expensive, but they tend to last many years.

So what does it cost to make a film?

Some people will swear it costs almost nothing. Go on holiday, shoot footage, edit it and add music. Film.
Others will speak of travel expenses, catering, prop and costume hire, crane hire, generator hire and so on.

So whenever we ask if it is fair that people who make some money from their movies sometimes take part in amateur events, how do we allow for differences in spending?

If a person or a club makes some money through film, they can afford to spend more on their purely amateur movies.
It can happen in the UK ... and many years ago Finchley Cinevideo Society had a movie taken up for commercial cinema distribution. Many clubs and individuals today do their amateur work and also do commercial work for local charities, weddings and so on.

Someone with a large disposable income can spend more lavishly than someone on the dole or on a basic pension.

Is there any way we can level the playing field?

Dave

[stingman]

The biggest cost to us (other then the equipment) is editing! If we paid ourselves the minimum wage for each hour we soent editing a film then it would be really dear!

I`m editing a jazz film that is almost two hours long. Adding effects and basic editing is taking almost an hour for two minutes of edited film. I know it`s not real money, but if it was for someone then it would be. Would they pay £339 excluding capture of a 5 camera project @ £56.50. And thats just minimum wage!

Be good.......

Stingman

[Willy]

So what does it cost to make a film?

Some people will swear it costs almost nothing. Go on holiday, shoot footage, edit it and add music. Film.
Others will speak of travel expenses, catering, prop and costume hire, crane hire, generator hire and so on.
.[/i]
Dave

A difficult question, Dave. In my club there is a lady who can't even afford a camera. Some years ago she paid her membership (25 euros) by instalment. Maybe you won't believe me. However, she feels fine in my club. She is very talented as an actress. She's not simple-minded you know. She's very intelligent. Her husband was a top-engineer, but he left her many years ago. These things may happen.

I've already given her some roles. My wife gives her clothes from time to time... etc... In fact it is unjust. She can't even make a film.

Again I would like to make clear that I am not against filmmakers who earn money by making films of weddings, for charity, etc...

But I will give you a bad example : a filmmaker is sponsored by our regional community to make a film about a local artist. So he gets money for it. When the film is finished he organizes a reception and his film is ... for sale. I am also against filmmakers who are sponsored by banking, who sell their films to TV-channels and who take part in festivals like BIAFF and Guernsey to promote their films. One of them was already fined by SABAM, the Belgian Copyright Organisation, but apparently he goes on with these "illegal" practices.

Two weeks ago I gave a lecture in a club near Brussels for CvB, our national umbrella organisation. Maybe I'm not a little shrimp anymore, but I've not become a shark you know. Some members of that club protested against his misbehaviour, but I had to tell them that I was only there to talk about making films. So it's clear that many hobbyists feel dishearted by such things.

Some years ago I made a film together with someone else to share the costs. I guess that the film cost about £600, but we worked about two years and a half on it. Afterwards my colleague asked me to redeem the film for cash so that we could pay our expenses. I refused because of my principles. Now I think I was wrong. As long as you don't make a living then there is no problem I think.

I really don't know how to tackle that problem, Dave. Good question. On the envelope in which we put our entries is written : "film with no commercial value". I'm sure it's not always like that. There will always be people with dishonest intentions.

[ned c]

So, Willy, how much did it cost to make "Breendonk"?

If you go onto the IAC website you will see a detailed report on the making of "Life's Little Gaps" with an explanation of where the $1200 (about GBP600) was spent, mainly on renting lighting. There is also a brief reference to how the maker, Scott Hillhouse, cut back on his living expenses to pay the bills.

A lot of people can't afford a video camera and we should have many more of them in video clubs which would have a better chance of survival. A good actress is worth six cameramen any day of the week.

As n-c film makers our labor is, by definition, free so it is never part of the cost equation but props, transportation, food, printing, equipment rental etc are all costs that we have to bear. This is why a film making as a group is good, it can share the cost and experience, it does not have to be a club with a social life. It seems that this is how Ken Wilson works and based on his results then membership of a traditional club may be a drag on creativity.

Discuss, I hope!

ned c

[stingman]

A good actress is worth six cameramen any day of the week.

Discuss, I hope!

ned c

What the Actress said to the Bishop! but.......

A good Actress NEEDS a cameraman, otherwise she`s just a normal person! A decent cameraman can make her look, Fat, Thin, Old, Young, Attractive, Ugly, Sinister, Pure and a load more............. It`s all done in camera with frameing and tilting the camera etc........ As you know!

Be good.........

Stingman

[Willy]

So, Willy, how much did it cost to make "Breendonk"?
ned c

Discussion
Oh, Ned, I don't have any problems to tell you this. On the contrary even. I also love producing films. It's always a challenge. CvB, our national umbrella organization, has invited me for 16th May. They want me to talk about "Breendonk". I will have an "opponent", a lady who has already been very successful with her sponsored and commercialized animation films. The initiators hope to evoke some discussion.

Free panoramic view
As you know, Ned, my film "Breendonk" starts with a panoramic view. First I thought of a flight over the concentration camp. A friend who can fly a chopper said that he was willing to do this. I had to pay 750 euros which is about £600 at the moment. Of course that was too expensive. I am not a poor church mouse and I am willing to spend some money on my films, but it must be reasonable. Therefore I tried a balloon trip. Price : 300 euros. Still too much. One day I went to my former school for an "open day". The local fire brigade was there. They demonstrated their automatic ladder. Height : 35 metres. I'm afraid of heights, but I thought : "That's it !". One of the firemen is a member of my club. He was willing to come with with his automatic ladder. I didn't have to pay anything. The weather was not excellent. There was some wind. I was not happy with the shots that I had taken. Some weeks later I asked him to come again. This time I had a wonderful panoramic view. It was totally free ! Nothing !

Free German uniforms
People also wonder how much I paid for the German uniforms. In "Google" I found the "German Vehicle Group" in Holland. The president was willing to come with his vehicles and members with uniforms. I had to pay only for their fuel. Too much I thought. Then he told me that the vice-president was a Belgian. Moreover he lived only a few miles from the concentration camp. What a coincidence ! I contacted Stefan Goubin. He was willing to ask all his Belgian friends, also from the French speaking part. He didn't want to lend his uniforms, but he and his friends were willing to be actors in my film. They always do re-enactments. It was totally free. Moreover Stefan and his friends seemed to be very motivated. Stefan is even Commandant Schmidt in my film, the one with his dog. Gaston De Wit, the ex-prisoner-of war, was very impressed when he saw Stefan. "He looks like the real Commandant Schmidt", Gaston said.

25 pairs of clogs free
I also needed clogs. I contacted a drama group. I could borrow 25 pairs of clogs. They were yellow, but I changed part of my film into black and white. So that was not a problem.

The prisoners had to wear uniforms of soldiers of the First World War. I couldn't find them. Maybe now I would find them. So I had to hire them. Cost : £125.

I offered the members of the "German Vehicle Group" a lunch in the concentraton camp. My wife was the caterer. She prepared cheese and ham sandwiches. She went to the supermarket to buy cans of coke and beer. I think that altogether I paid about £300 for that film, because I also bought some books and a film about the Second World War (30 seconds introduction film). Filming the actors took four Sunday mornings. I was not allowed to film in the afternoon because then there were too many visitors in the "Human Rights Memorial".

£18 to register my film
I have not sold any copy. If I would do that spider man would attack ! He himself learnt a lesson. I am very careful. I contacted our national copyright organization and paid £18 to
register my film. You can see the number of SABAM, as the organization is called, at the end of my film. What does this mean : if I am a bit careless and someone has copied my film I could ask SABAM to sue that person. To be honest : I am sure that some copies are circulating in Britain, but I'm not going to sue them. On the contrary. I am proud with the result. I also gave an English version to Gaston De Wit, the ex-prisoner of war, and to Stefan Goubin, the vice-president of the "German Vehicle Group".

Price film : £300
To be honest, once I thought of selling my film in order to recover the £300, but after all I enjoyed making that film so much and also the members of my club are proud when they can see themselves in the film. Believe me or not : even the chairman and curator of the concentration camp don't have any copy. Sometimes they invite me for a seminary. Then I have to show my film to teachers of history, of ethics and religion.

Film costs £300
I don't think that I spent too much money on that film. I worked on it for about two years. Two years of fun and also afterwards when showing the documentary. In some weeks the film will be shown in all secondary schools in St. Truiden. It's a town in Flanders. The mayor is one of my former colleagues. The film was recommended by ... the chairman of the concentration camp ! Showing the film to schoolchildren... That was one of the reaons why I made that film.

I am very busy at this moment. I am editing a very long film, but I thought that it was interesting to tell you all this.

[stingman]

Willy. THAT`s what it IS ALL about. Doing something serious but having FUN. This is what makes us different form professional. They do it for a job and to get something out of it..... Money! WE do it for love and don`t get any money, or sometimes, very little.

I thank you for telling us the background to your film (I would love to see it oneday). You mention that you havn`t been persuaded to sell your film (it`s the sort of film that could be shown on the BBC or The Discovery Channel!), This is a brave step, but it does make you tougther and to not being prepaired to be `sold out`. It also gives value to your film. You wouldn`t want it being sold for £1.99 in a bargain bin in some shop!

Thanks again for sharing all this with us. May be you could do a `Directors Commentary soundtrack` for it?

Thanks.

Be good.........

Stingman

[Mike Shaw]

We (the small group I have put together) have been faced with the problem of to sell or not to sell. Briefly we uncovered a pile of 35mm and 16mm film dating back to the 1930s (about 9 hours worth), in cans, in the archives of the local library. They couldn't afford to have it digitally transferred - some of the 16mm stuff had been transferred by projecting and refilming, and transferring to VHS, with very very poor results (IMO).

We put several hundred pounds of our own money into the project for a trial run of a few reels - total cost for all transfers was around £3000. As a result of our effort, we were able to obtain funding to cover the rest of the transfers: however, to then make the material suitable for public viewing on DVD we chose to shoot new material (free), write a covering booklet (for free) to provide a DVD of local interest (the films are all about local events). All base materials and time etc were done for dfree. The actual transfers have been covered by funding.

We were then faced with producing a large qualntity of the first DVD and its booklet for local libraries, schools and interested individuals ... and that costs money. We are having to sell the DVDs (and 36 page booklet) in order to cover the reproduction costs - and to fund the production of the next DVDs. Free copies are being sent to schools etc. But we are 'banned' from entering our work into competitions and shows because it could be regarded as a commercial exercise. (We have mixed the old film with material of the same places today - you can get an idea of this froma trailer I've prepared which can be seen at http://www.mikeshaw.co.uk/footprints.htm

Needless to say, we have spent a LONG time (nearly two years) researching the material and searching for any possible copyright holders and so on. A labour of love.

One of the films we have had transferred, a docu-story film about the Civil Defence, is one of the first ever made by Orpington Cine Society in the late 50s - now Orpington Video and Film Makers - and they don't know it yet, but when made into a DVD, it will be presented to them, for free.

Having to sell stuff to cover reproduction costs would seem to me to be 'legitimate' - we are not, after all, total philanderists! Filming costs and materials we are absorbing totally - and thoroughly enjoying the challenges.

[ned c]

This is straight forward to me, the end result of all your labors certainly qualifies for a huge number of film festivals but not for those that require a non-commercial or "amateur" entry requirement.

Once you start selling DVDs to recoup your costs then this is a professional production/project. There is also the question of your support funding source. The AMPS Festival allows funding from non-commercial sources eg state arts councils but not from direct commercial sources. But this has been the subject of debate, surely an n-c film should be funded by those making it to ensure their freedom from political agendas

This is a debate that will ultimately have to be resolved by some central agency rather than individual discussions.


ned c

[Mike Shaw]

Our funding has come from a local Arts Council, and a local History Society - both of which are, of course, non-commercial. We did approach some commercial enterprises in the early days, but they weren't interested. (Maybe that's fortunate!!)

However, it must be appreciated that in making this historic material 'public' we can't really afford to give it away in vast quantities: we seek to recover the duplication and printing costs only - and any postage that may be incurred. All other production costs are coming out of our own pocket (though it would be nice to get some of that back !!)

I wonder what would be the situation, though, if from the material we have had transferred, we made other shortened 'precis' versions (cutting out a lot of stuff that isn't of great historic interest) ? These obviously would not (could not) be for sale, but if interesting enough in their own right, could be suitable for festivals?.


Yes/no ??

[FILM THURSO]

Film Thurso has spent a fair old whack on film over the years but generally speaking costs are never tallied up because the films are made in a very bits and bobs way. Usually a number of projects run together so one minute we are working on one thing and then something else later in the day. No one project is paid for in one go.
That said we don't lose sight of each projects estimated costs. Topical projects are cheap and amount to transport, food*, accomodation* (*where applicable) and one tape. Some topical projects might get extra attention depending on what they are. A major or potentially historic event might be allocated cine film and or stills photography on film as well.
The cost of a film is never down to how many tapes or films were used. Overall it's everything that was bought and payed specifically as a contribution to make the film possible.
More money doesn't gurentee completion either. Our most expensive project was somewhere around £1000 and remains in the archive un-finished.
Our next most expensive picture was "The Bilbster Adventure" because there was a lot of technical development required to complete the film, it went through a shakey production from losing cast and having to re-shoot most of the picture to big problems creating the effects. Four years later it was completed though.
Our average cost of story film is in the area of around £300 but like everything else, it depends on what's needed to put into the film.

[stingman]

..........from losing cast and having to re-shoot most of the picture to big problems creating the effects. Four years later it was completed though.

One good way to prevent losing cast affecting shooting (if planned proper) is to shoot all your main talking head on parts first. That way, if your cast leave, you can get stand-ins so you can film the back of there heads or do long shots.
The big boys have insurance to cover this. I wonder how much it would cost a low production film to get insurance.

Be good......

Stingman

[Michael Slowe]

Of course the production costs of a film need have no relation to the merit of the final product. Some of the very best and most moving films involved one man and his dog (sometimes not even the dog). Having said that I have no problem with people making money from their films or indeed making their living from film making. This doesn't necessarily make them any better at doing it. Why are we so frightened of the word 'professional'? Actually I have often been offered money for my films but always refuse it since I don't want to jeopodise my 'amateur' status. A continental TV network wants a couple of my documentaries and I said fine but I can't accept any payment and it can go to charity. But, if people want (and need) to recoup expenses then of course they should and have no qualms about it either.

[stingman]

Some of the very best and most moving films involved one man and his dog .....

Ask Willy!

Be good.........

Stingman.

[FILM THURSO]

Our loss of cast was due to a relationship thingy between two of the cast. Beyond our control as they say.