How do I make a film ? And You ?

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Willy
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How do I make a film ? And You ?

Post by Willy »

Some weeks ago Dave Watterson wrote : "What surprised me on first contact with the movement is how little time most clubs spend making movies or eventually talking seriously about how movies are made. So much attention seemed to be paid to technicalities.

The rattling sound of old projectors.
Yes, I agree. Also on this forum. That's a pity. I am a member of two clubs. In one of them the members always talk about editing systems (adobe, pinnacle, casablanca, magic, ... ), about pixels and other technical problems. They always want to show the magical effects that can be made with their machines. The last few weeks lots of 8mm film were shown by nostalgic souls who always enjoy listening to the rattling sound of old projectors. I must admit : I also enjoyed it, but I tried to turn the tide by showing the rough copy of my film in order to criticize it and to make it stronger. Luckily some members seemed to appreciate it.

Exchange ideas
I think that on this forum we should try to exchange more ideas about making films. I always wonder how other friends work. Some weeks ago I read an article in the American AMPS-magazine written by Michael Slowe. It's amazing how he prepared everything to make his film "It's an Alcapa !" These are things that are very useful. Also on this website (not forum) some interesting articles appeared about how films have been made. "Coffee Time" by Urbain Appeltans is a good example.

On an other thread I already gave hints for making nature films. I told our friends about the locations I visited to make a film about wildlife. Years ago my Belgian Japanese friend Toshi Sakurai asked me where he could find the best spots to film puffins. I told him and he was very pleased with it. Unfortunately he stopped filming. Anyway technical information may be very useful but also facts about real filmmaking.

The first step : reading stories
So how do I start making a film ? The first step for a fiction film : I always read books in order to find the best stories. When I was a teacher of English (for foreign students of English of course) I asked my children to read simplified stories based on 1,000 easy words, 2,000 words etc... (Beginners, intermediate and advanced level). These thin books are edited by Longman, Cambridge University Press etc... They give us excellent stories. I've just read one. it's called "Freckles". It's about a young girl with freckles on her nose. She has an inferiority complex. She is a bit jealous of her schoolmate who is prettier than she is and who has already had many boyfriends... Etc. Etc...

Reading books may be a good start to make a good film. I must admit that I have friends who can make better fiction films than I can. Urbain is one of them. Reluctantly I mix travelogues (Together with Yoda) and documentaries (Breendonk) with stories. In other words : my films are stories in documentaries and travelogues. Up to now I have made only one "pure" fiction film : "Mit Tio Paco". That's also why I provide other friends like Urbain with stories that I have read.

A fox and a deaf girl
"Cinemascope" is such a one. It's based on a story written by Annie M.G. Schmidt, a famous Dutch author. In this story an old couple decide to go to the cinema. The old lady is wearing a dead fox round her neck. They are watching the film in which there is a living fox. Suddenly the fox round the lady's neck is alive and jumps off her shoulder into the film ... Urbain has changed the fox into a small dog... Of course a fox was not feasible.

Now he's making a film about a deaf girl. I gave him the simplified story "Different Worlds". I made a summary of that story. I translated it into Dutch and I sent it to him by email. It's about a boy who is in love with a deaf girl... I remember there is also a snow scene in it. As it only snows a few days every year that scene is not feasible. Apparently Urbain is trying to change the story together with his Dutch friends or his "Magic Four" team. Maybe afterwards only the "frame" of the story will be left over. It will be quite different from the original story, but the theme will not have been changed. Anyway I "showed him the way". If a friend is successful with a film that is based on a story given by me then I am also very happy. In my opinion it's not necessary that all members of a club are real filmmakers. You also need friends who are willing to contribute to the work of others without making films themselves.

Young Sammy and his old film crew
Some weeks ago our youngest filmmaker Samuel Faict decided to make a horror film. He asked the members of my club to contribute by holding the microphone in their hands, by following the shooting-list, by giving food and drinks during luch-time etc... He had a crew of 5 old foxes to help him. 4 out of these 5 never make films themselves.

A cat on Ohama Beach
As I told you I make travelogues and documentaries. But also for such films it is essential that you read books, bochures, lealfets. I also try to find information on internet. After having read everything I try to make a decision about the theme of my film. Once I saw a film about Normandy. The filmmaker was standing on a high plain (a meadow) near Ohama Beach. You could see the bzeach in the distance. In the film he talked about the invasion of the Allied Forces. Suddenly a pussycat passed his camera and he zoomed in ... Of course that was wrong. Mind : I am not against cats. On the contrary ... I am a cat-lover. A good example : Once I saw a film about a typical village in the South of France. The filmmaker said that most of the time you can't see a living soul in the streets, but at that moment he showed a cat that was asleep on a windowsill. That was good because the cat intensified the atmosphere of rest, of peace and quiet, of serenity.

Step two
I'm going to stop writing now because my letter or message is perhaps already too long. Maybe other ardent filmmakers can tell me how they start making a film. I'm very anxious to know it. Afterwards it would be useful to go on to step two.
Willy
Willy Van der Linden
Peter Thomlinson

Re: How do I make a film ? And You ?

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

Willy wrote:Some weeks ago Dave Watterson wrote : "What surprised me on first contact with the movement is how little time most clubs spend making movies or eventually talking seriously about how movies are made. So much attention seemed to be paid to technicalities.
Willy, an interesting and thought provoking post.

What surprises me (and I know some people will tell me this is NOT true, and contradict me) - is that we do not - in the club/society situation - always talk much about the nuts and bolts of film making.

One example: I've never witnessed a discussion of more than a few seconds in club situations about framing subjects, including following with the camera as they move about. I know that very good camerpeople do this instinctively (the likes of Michael Slowe and others, perhaps even including me!)

When Michael shot a video drama for me, there was little need for me to direct the camera, although Michael often asked how I wanted things framed, and followed if movement was part of the shot. But most mere mortals, who have not the talents of a Michael Slowe, need a bit of training, at the very minimum.

What clubs need to do (as the club I belonged to did for a while) - is to have an evening of "shoot to edit" - where a short piece of drama is enacted and many people shoot it, and come back with their final edits a week later. Discussion on how it was shot and edited, both technical camerawork and editing, as well as framing were discussed, and at the end a vote was taken on the best piece of work. No prizes were given, but people learnt a lot from the exercise. It did not matter if the actors were amateurs, as they were not being judged.

It's the same with sound. Although whole evenings are devoted very occasionally to this subject, it is often disregarded for long periods. And of course, bad sound can ruin a film, and often does.

Lighting is another example, and this does get covered quite a lot. But practical evenings on lighting are never a waste, as lighting is an art form on its own.

Then there is the creative side, which does get a certain amount of coverage by clubs. However, many people think the discussion about scripts, and film planning, is boring, as many people find the skills needed for creative editing are too.
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billyfromConsett
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Post by billyfromConsett »

We're talking about 'the club within a club' here. Roughly half of our members are long term members, but film watchers rather than makers.

If we set aside lots of practical nights, attendances would fall.

But another issue with doing practical nights is getting people to do them. Some are happy to make their own movies, but would be a little less willing to teach the things mentioned.

I've made movies for about 8 years, got good awards in Biaff last year, but couldn't do talks on lighting.

As for teaching about framing, then following with a moving camera, well without professional tracking gear, it ain't going to look as stable a rested cam.

We should give time to aspects which can turn a good flim into a great one as part of a varied programme that the members would agree with.

Willy's points about creating a story must surely be the starter, as everything else is about getting it to work.
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

billyfromConsett wrote:We're talking about 'the club within a club' here. Roughly half of our members are long term members, but film watchers rather than makers.

If we set aside lots of practical nights, attendances would fall.

But another issue with doing practical nights is getting people to do them. Some are happy to make their own movies, but would be a little less willing to teach the things mentioned.

I've made movies for about 8 years, got good awards in Biaff last year, but couldn't do talks on lighting.

As for teaching about framing, then following with a moving camera, well without professional tracking gear, it ain't going to look as stable a rested cam.

We should give time to aspects which can turn a good flim into a great one as part of a varied programme that the members would agree with.

Willy's points about creating a story must surely be the starter, as everything else is about getting it to work.
You do not need professional tracking gear to follow - unless you mean a professional steadycam. I'm talking about following a subject using a tripod with a reasonable fluid head. (From left to right/right to left). And tracking gear at our club was built by a member very cheaply, and worked very well. Also these days you can get a cheap steadycam device for about £100 which works well.

And we DID teach each other, that's the whole point. The great film makers in the club, and there were some great ones, made films and we helped, and watched, listened and learnt.

AND the film watchers were quite happy to attend the occasional nights which were practical.

Talks on lighting: don't you ever get an expert in to talk about such things as lighting? Your club sounds a bit dull!
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FILM THURSO
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Post by FILM THURSO »

My god, how do I follow on from here? Well we like to teach as we work with a fundimental approach- don't panic about technical stuff, it just isn't complicated. I have seen in other forum far worse cases of folk constantly talking aout making "test" films. What the heck's that all about. Just make a proper movie guys, you'll soon know if it works or not! With modern DLP projectors your future is a clear choice- Holywood here I come or my day job is more akin to my abilities.
I've often seen threads on "What's the best camera to use" so I baffled them with, "What kind of movie you makin?" There's no such thing as "the best camera". There is the most appropriate camera. But as I've said elsewhere, if it's in the wrongs hands...
You can put whatever technical gadgets you want in front of a bunch of film makers but if they suck... they suck, and no amount of high tech junk will change that.
The best way to learn the craft of movies is on-the-job learning. If you are doing it whilst receiving an explanation of the process then you will take it in far better than just having discussion on it's own. Hold on to your questions- they may be answered without having to be asked!
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

FILM THURSO wrote:My god, how do I follow on from here? Well we like to teach as we work with a fundimental approach- don't panic about technical stuff, it just isn't complicated. I have seen in other forum far worse cases of folk constantly talking aout making "test" films. What the heck's that all about. Just make a proper movie guys, you'll soon know if it works or not! With modern DLP projectors your future is a clear choice- Holywood here I come or my day job is more akin to my abilities.
I've often seen threads on "What's the best camera to use" so I baffled them with, "What kind of movie you makin?" There's no such thing as "the best camera". There is the most appropriate camera. But as I've said elsewhere, if it's in the wrongs hands...
You can put whatever technical gadgets you want in front of a bunch of film makers but if they suck... they suck, and no amount of high tech junk will change that.
The best way to learn the craft of movies is on-the-job learning. If you are doing it whilst receiving an explanation of the process then you will take it in far better than just having discussion on it's own. Hold on to your questions- they may be answered without having to be asked!
Well, yes and no!!

Sure, the best way to learn is on a proper shoot. But problems can then occur, like once when the camera person had no idea how to change from auto to manual. And another camera operator who had to learn on the job. Surely, it makes sense to get people who have some training and experience.

Just like my first directing attempt, when I tried to set up a lighting sequence that would not work, as the lights were not good enough and not enough available, and the lighting bod who was a great bloke just did not, like the useless director (me), have enough experience or training to pull it off. So an immediate re-think and back to simple basics, which in the end worked up to a point.

The next time I tried directing I certainly did NOT attempt anything too complicated, even though I had a different and very outstanding lighting operator. You live and learn.

I think most club people learn both on the job and off it. We used to set up tracking shots at meetings, just to see how different lenses would work, or at different zoom settings. This is invaluable, as you then know what to do, and what will work when yu come to try and make a proper film. Same with lighting, it saves time and frustration when you do the shoot proper if you know of good lighting plans.

Same with actors, a run trough before the shoot is helpful as you can adjust their acting (timing, speed of delivery etc.,) before the shoot, saving time and sometimes embarrassment too. :wink:

(And by the way, even though I'm bored with the technical stuff, and would rather leave it to others, it is NOT that easy, and it does NOT just fall into place. I used to live in cloud cuckoo land too! A good technical expert is worth their weight in gold, or at the very least, tripods!) :D
(Do forgive me for plain speaking - but as film makers (past and present) we need to communicate at a white hot level). :twisted:
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Dave Watterson
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Post by Dave Watterson »

Just a quick comment here ... in the last few weeks I have watched almost 300 assorted non-commercial movies with my judging hat on. Many were excellent. There were far fewer technical faults than a similar collection might have presented in the days of cine. But there were a few issues:

Surprisingly often the image was cropped at the corners by the edge of a lens-hood. Presumably when editing the film-maker's monitors did not show the whole image. Unfortunately for them many projection systems do show the whole image.

Despite some previous postings here I really am not paranoid about camera shake and accept a lot of hand-held camera work ... but if you are showing long straight horizons like a still ocean or an enormous Inca ruin where straight lines stretch right across the screen every tremble is obvious. A tripod, mini-tripod or bean-bag would help enormously.

Many documentaries and some fiction films had wind noise on the mics. Very often there was no great virtue in having live sound recordings in those scenes and more thought at editing stage could have removed the irritation.

These are basic points but people need to learn them somehow and somewhere.

Dave
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FILM THURSO
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Post by FILM THURSO »

The best way to learn the craft of movies is on-the-job learning. If you are doing it whilst receiving an explanation of the process then you will take it in far better than just having discussion on it's own.

I think I covered it here. On the job learning and yes if the camera bloke doesn't know how to get to the manual setting it will be explained. It's how on the job learning works. Any film production, even at professional level, involves moments of problem solving.

Surprisingly often the image was cropped at the corners by the edge of a lens-hood

Yup, you can see that on our films sometimes but sometimes we don't care. It is definately the equipment at fault though. Our cameras both don't show the whole picture on the viewfinder, the editing studio does show everything but again the projectors crop the image a bit. WOOOOOOO FREAKY MOMENT- The Darth Vader helmet just spoke in our studio. HOLY MOLY! Nobody was near it. :shock:
Camera shake and wind noise are common problems, Major studios usually post re-dubb the actors from studio lip-sync sessions to clean this up. We do what we can to keep shake out of it although it sometimes suites the picture like in our spoof newsreel, "Picture House Gazetteer".
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

FILM THURSO wrote: Camera shake and wind noise are common problems, Major studios usually post re-dubb the actors from studio lip-sync sessions to clean this up. We do what we can to keep shake out of it although it sometimes suites the picture like in our spoof newsreel, "Picture House Gazetteer".
Lip Sync is relatively easy to do, providing the actor can do it. They only have to have a few dry runs and then they can usually time it from a monitor. It's then easy to sync up on the editing system. I've had to do it when someone failed to tell me the sound at a new location had a lot of reverberation.
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FILM THURSO
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Post by FILM THURSO »

Lip Sync is relatively easy to do, providing the actor can do it.

Which brings me back to the subject of local actors so I'm the only one who's ever done lip-syncing in Caithness.
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Willy
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Re: How do I make a film ? And You ?

Post by Willy »

[quote="Willy"]Some weeks ago Dave Watterson wrote : "What surprised me on first contact with the movement is how little time most clubs spend making movies or eventually talking seriously about how movies are made. So much attention seemed to be paid to technicalities.


Step Two
It seems to me that everyone agrees with step one. So reading books, stories, leaflets, etc... is very important. After that I make a decision about the subject or theme. Then comes step two.

Scenario
I always make a scenario, even for travelogues. This is also the structure of my film. In every film there is a 'set up' or introduction. I always think about the question words beginning with a w : where ? what ? who ? why ? ... For instance : I am going to make a film about the Cotswolds. The viewer must know where the Cotswolds are situated... why they are called 'the Cotswolds" etc... In the Middle part there are some chapters. For instance in Chapter A the history of the Cotswolds. Chapter B some villages and towns. Chapter C some events in these villages and towns etc... After that comes the end of the film.

I think it is also interesting to invent an original guideline for your film : someone who shows the viewer round the area, town, etc... Interviews make the film more lively. We should try to show things that are not workaday reality.It's difficult to avoid monotony.

Length
A few years ago a prominent filmmaker said in our club that the introduction should be 25 % of the film, the middle part 50 % and the end 25 %. I don't agree with this. Sometimes even 10 % is enough for the beginning.

I think that we should always try to give our film an original and spectacular beginning. Also the end is very important. In general the viewer will always remember the introduction and end of the film most.

So after all the structure of a film is very essential. Wrong example . You make a film about the City of Paris and you start with the interior of the Louvre Museum. We must not beat about the bush.
Willy Van der Linden
Michael Slowe
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How Do I Make a Film? And You?

Post by Michael Slowe »

This is the best thread that has been on the forum for months!

Thank you Peter for your kind words but not really justified.

I agree that technicalities occupy the minds of non commercial film makers far too much. Most of it is common sense and can be learnt using a still camera from an early age. I find that watching good films, either in a cinema or on TV inspires me to aim for those standards. Simply by looking at stuff that you have shot and edited tells you whether you are succeeding. It's all there on the screen - does it work - does it look right - if you saw it on TV would you think it good enough? I honestly don't think that actual instruction would be enough or even very helpful. Film making is instinctive, from the heart. The simplest equipment can be quite sufficient but the film maker has to know what he is aiming for and be honest with himself to judge whether he has achieved his aim or not.

Apart from the shooting, which is the easy part, there is the editing where the real job starts. That is another thread altogether!
Peter Thomlinson

Re: How Do I Make a Film? And You?

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

Michael Slowe wrote:This is the best thread that has been on the forum for months!

Thank you Peter for your kind words but not really justified.
There I have to disagree with you!! (About the kind words!!)
I agree that technicalities occupy the minds of non commercial film makers far too much. Most of it is common sense and can be learnt using a still camera from an early age. I find that watching good films, either in a cinema or on TV inspires me to aim for those standards. Simply by looking at stuff that you have shot and edited tells you whether you are succeeding. It's all there on the screen - does it work - does it look right - if you saw it on TV would you think it good enough? I honestly don't think that actual instruction would be enough or even very helpful. Film making is instinctive, from the heart. The simplest equipment can be quite sufficient but the film maker has to know what he is aiming for and be honest with himself to judge whether he has achieved his aim or not.

Apart from the shooting, which is the easy part, there is the editing where the real job starts. That is another thread altogether!
Michael - I have to agree here, but only up to a point. I learnt all I know (which is not a lot) from people like Oscar Reisel, one of the best film makers around at the time (sadly he is no longer with us) and any time for that matter. In a club situation I needed to be a bit like a sponge, and soak everything up. I had a sort of natural ability with camera work, as I'd been a stills photographer from the age of about 14. But I had to understand how it was done, and what the options were. And the options are endless, that's why every day in any artistic field is still like day one, and we are all beginners.

Yes, I absolutely agree, we have to look at what other people do and measure ourselves against the best work. And we never really achieve our aims, only up to a point. If one does achieve ones's aims, then one has failed.

And editing, as you rightly say, is another ball game again. That is what makes it such a fascinating art form. If only I was young enough to do it all again!
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Post by ned c »

Peter, I assume you are well into your 80's to be too old to start again.

There is no substitute for taking the camera out and shoorting things to see how they turn out and trying again to get another point of view, different lighting, focal length etc. This is one of the great advantages of tape, you can even use the same tape over and over.

One of the reasons for Michael's success (there are several but this is very important in my opinion) is that he shows his films to small, critical audiences and gets feed back before the final cut. On occasion I have sat with an audience watching my films and by that strange group osmosis realised that what I have done isn't working. If possible I ask the audience why but that's rare.

Ned C
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

ned c wrote:Peter, I assume you are well into your 80's to be too old to start again.

There is no substitute for taking the camera out and shoorting things to see how they turn out and trying again to get another point of view, different lighting, focal length etc. This is one of the great advantages of tape, you can even use the same tape over and over.

One of the reasons for Michael's success (there are several but this is very important in my opinion) is that he shows his films to small, critical audiences and gets feed back before the final cut. On occasion I have sat with an audience watching my films and by that strange group osmosis realised that what I have done isn't working. If possible I ask the audience why but that's rare.

Ned C
Actually, I'm in my late nineties ... They are sending me a new nurse soon, one with a big personality, and nice warm hands ... (Better stop there ...)

Yes, Michael and I have been known to sit and watch each others stuff, as it were. And Michael is one of the few people who really takes comments in the most positive way. Not I can find too much to comment about with his material!!
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