How can a comp judge be helpful?

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billyfromConsett
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Post by billyfromConsett »

The best films I've made have been for competitions, they get me to get on with it - or I've got to bow my head in shame with a no-show.

Some of our members probably like it that way mind....
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

billyfromConsett wrote:The best films I've made have been for competitions, they get me to get on with it - or I've got to bow my head in shame with a no-show.

Some of our members probably like it that way mind....
That is a good point, and no matter how much we complain, I for one would not have made some of my "stuff" had it not been for competition deadlines.
ned c
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Post by ned c »

Actually I am not a "young" film maker measured in years (I am in my 8th decade) but I am very open to new things and new ways of communication.

Yes, I learnt the rules and worked as a professonal for many years. However, the audience has developed a high skill at "reading" films so they do not find jump cuts, line crossing or discontinuity a challenge to their understanding of what is happening and this has been refined in rock videos and ads. It has also moved into feature films, for example, with directors like Mike Figgis and Steven Sodebergh. It has, of course always been there in the works of film makers like Stan Brakhage.

You say that the "rules" may be bent, but by how much? The suggestion that the rules are not inviolate defeats their purpose as rules.

Roy, your comments sum up why most video clubs are in decline, either we accept and try to see what is good in modern styles or just ignore them and their makers and make films that look (hope perhaps) like 50s Hollywood films. They have a declining audience.

The "rules" you list are like the basic "rules" of painting, everyone should learn them but the great artists break them. I know I have said this befoer but think Impressionists v the Academicians, I bet everyone can name at least two or three impressionists but ask them to name three French 19th century academic painters!

Do not read this as a rejection of the traditional film making style but rather a plea for an acceptance of a much broader approach to film making that may challenge the viewer who is used to a comfortable viewing experience. One of the problems with many amateur films is their blandness and unwillingness to tackle really serious subjects. There is nothing better than a storm of controversey over a film to generate some good film making!!

ned c
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

ned c wrote:Actually I am not a "young" film maker measured in years (I am in my 8th decade) but I am very open to new things and new ways of communication.

Yes, I learnt the rules and worked as a professonal for many years. However, the audience has developed a high skill at "reading" films so they do not find jump cuts, line crossing or discontinuity a challenge to their understanding of what is happening and this has been refined in rock videos and ads. It has also moved into feature films, for example, with directors like Mike Figgis and Steven Sodebergh. It has, of course always been there in the works of film makers like Stan Brakhage.

You say that the "rules" may be bent, but by how much? The suggestion that the rules are not inviolate defeats their purpose as rules.

Roy, your comments sum up why most video clubs are in decline, either we accept and try to see what is good in modern styles or just ignore them and their makers and make films that look (hope perhaps) like 50s Hollywood films. They have a declining audience.

The "rules" you list are like the basic "rules" of painting, everyone should learn them but the great artists break them. I know I have said this befoer but think Impressionists v the Academicians, I bet everyone can name at least two or three impressionists but ask them to name three French 19th century academic painters!

Do not read this as a rejection of the traditional film making style but rather a plea for an acceptance of a much broader approach to film making that may challenge the viewer who is used to a comfortable viewing experience. One of the problems with many amateur films is their blandness and unwillingness to tackle really serious subjects. There is nothing better than a storm of controversey over a film to generate some good film making!!

ned c
Ned, there is nothing in your intelligent post quoted above, that I could find any disagreement with.

I think the statement about the unwillingness to tackle serious subjects by amateur film makers is an absolutely crucial point. Some newer and younger members who come along to film clubs often do not last long as members simply because they see members making the same films over and over again. An example would be that stock in trade item, the steam engine. And there are many more of course. Unless these sorts of subjects are given entirely new treatments and are revitalised as subjects, then the Hollywood 1950's example you gave holds.

The younger people who try and make controversial films of a deadly serious nature are often put off by the reaction of more "died in the wool members" who are sometimes offended by the subject matter. Such subjects may include abortion, homsexuality, etc., etc., as obvious examples. This is not to say that there are not "older" or more traditional members of clubs who are not producing cutting edge material, but perhaps they are a small minority.

The voice of the young ,and also mature cutting edge club members, needs to be heard much more, and "punch ups" of the verbal sort should be happening much more regularly at club meetings.

I do think people like Ian (stingman) are assets to clubs, simply (but not only) because he and others are willing to question the comfortable status quo, and even if people like me sometimes have "run ins" on the MB, that is healthy and par for the course. Impassioned discussions and disagreements on here and in the sort of films and subject matter we undertake to make are the life blood.

As Billy said, kill any humour and disagreement here on the MB and you kill the MB. It's just the same at club level. Good artistic enterprises are never comfortable, but that discomfort is a necessary ingredient.

As for bending the rules, all great artists learn the rules first and then bend them like hell. An easy example is the composer Webern (1883-1945) who started off sounding like Mahler, Richard Strauss, and other people of that late 19th Century/early 20 Century group, but then used 12 tone rows to compose really minimilist "modern" music which was unnaceptable at the time (mostly). Now his modern works are considered to be great music, and even "modern" in our 21st Century understanding.
Roy

Thread subject

Post by Roy »

Hi Ned. Surprise suprise, I agree with nearly everything you say, but you seem to think that everything is black and white, wheras there are a lot of grey areas. I agree that some video clubs don't encourage so called modern techniques, probally because they have not grown up with them. Young video makers have been brought up on Rock and Ad videos. Video making is a Church with many chapels which should accommodate all types. As for my type of film making causes the decline of Video Clubs, not completely so. I can only speak of my own experience in the UK. The biggest reason for the fall in numbers at my club is Death. I admit we don't have an influx of young members to replace them, but we do have new members every year of middle age. When the film(Cine) clubs were at their peak, we had over 100 members, we had our own cinema and canteen. But, I have to say out of that 100 members only about fifteen were serious film makers. About 60% never made films at all. Most would admit that coming to the club once a week was somewhere to go. TV was in its infancy. Commercial cinema was doing well, as was the Pubs. At that time I don't recall seeing any members under 25 years of age. Nevertheless membership began to decline because other attractions became availabe to the man in the street. Young Video makers in this country do not need the Video Clubs as we know them, A lot of schools have video clubs
and Video clubs as such are not needed to show their work as they have free outlets on the internet such as u tube etc. Also theycan send DVD's to each other. I am sorry I mistook you for a young filmaker, it's because you think young! I am 80 years old myself and have worked in the Entertainment industry all my working life, I have owned theatres, cinemas, Film and Video production companys and amusement centres. Which brings me to another one of your points that I can't wholly agree with. You say that audiances today have accepted the modern techniques of film making, Why then in the UK are cinema audiances figures dropping. I reguarly visit the cinema and with exception of hyped up block busters, they are only half full, And a high percentage of big budget films lose money. Wheras a lot of low budget British Films, and dare I say it, made with the old simple techniques, actually fill ther cinemas. As true democrats(I hope) we will have to agree to disagree, But I think the truth lies somewhere between our two schools of thought. Roy
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stingman
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Post by stingman »

As you all know. My name is mud by certain members in my club. It is all a long story. I`ll mention it one last time for the new members of the forum. The older one`s can skip the next bit or they my fall asleep at there keyboards! (Joke!)

When I was club Sec, I made a film for our Short Open Competition. It was totally different. They had NEVER seen anything like it on the club screen. I said to one of my friends at the club. "I`ve done this really good film and I know it`s going to win!" Of course, I didn`t know that it would win, but I was so confident that it would. This statement was overheard by a couple on the committee. The film won!. At the next committee meeting, this subject was brought up. They just would not believe me that I really didn`t know the results. They then accused me of proberly knowing ALL the results of ALL the competitions! I totally denigh all of it. To cut a long story short. I was asked to step down as club sec.

It`s amazing how the same sentence in the English Tounge can mean totally different things. Are we allowed to be confident about our films?

Another Story.................
I made a film for the Editing Comp and everyone is given the same footage to do with what they like. ANYTHING Goes for 5 minutes. Me being me, I turned the local carnaval into a nottinghill one! The judges marked me down on this because they didn`t like what I had done to a local event! I stopped entering films for a bit and the number of films entered over all in the club declined.
To cut a long story short. I made a rebellious film to make the point of judgeing and how they don`t know what they were doing, in this case. I chose the worst and reallyist bad song I could find and put titles on it. The film was totally black with one fade in it. I didn`t go to this meeting. I was chicken! Basicly this was when the poo-poo hit the fan. But the outcome of that film was that before each comp is done (in advance) the rules are sorted out at a club meeting and explained. So some good came out of it, but at a really high price.
I just keep my head just above the water now and speak when i`m spoken to. All the things I had done were for to better the members. Certain blinkered people cannot see this.
I do have a following of people and even non video makers seem to know. I do live on an Island. Everyone knows something about anyone else!

We all have choises to make. We either play it safe, say nothing and we blend in like all the film watchers at our clubs. There to make up the numbers, sitting on top of the wall. You are liked by most of the people. Easy life. OR we make a stand for the good of the club. You will be vilified, hated by most and always on the verge of being kicked out but it gets things done!

Which person do we want to be?
I have no control in my club but I want it to really grow. I`m on fire for it but I keep getting buckets of water thrown on me.

I`ll crawl back under my stone now! Sorry lads.
PS. Be on fire for film-making. It`s fantastic and exciting! It`s a shame that others don`t see it that way in our clubs. Even the Chairman, WOOPS, did I say that...................

Sorry to go on but I just want to encourage EVERYONE to make there filming experience even better.

Ian Gardner.
Ian Gardner
Film Maker
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

Of course Ian, we are only hearing one side of the story here, and you may be telling us one big fib, or guilding the lily, but I doubt it. Your tale is one that is sometimes heard, and maybe quite often. Your story sounds pretty genuine to me.

I have found myself in a not so dissimilar position as well. I too made film which (although I told no one it was supposed to be like that) was designed to upset a few people. In fact no one admitted to being offended by it, and the judges ignored it and of course it did not get anywhere (it was not that good anyway). I think people just humoured me and it confirmed for them that I was a bit of a nutter. (I was taking the p*** in the film and doing all the things that one should not do, like jump cuts and winding the sound down, with naught comments on the voice over, and girls going around topless). (I'm sure one or two people (men) enjoyed it but did not admit to it). I showed some naughty bits from a Ken Russell film once too, and I'm sure all the men loved it, but kept quiet, and it confirmed me as being "different".

I do think there may possibly be something seriously wrong with your club if they behave in such a manner. The fact that you did not say anything to the judges must surely mean that they were not biased.

Unfortunately in some ways, clubs are cosy places, and people hate us for disturbing the peace and causing controversy. I don't think being an difficult ****** is confined to any particular age of member, but it is just being keen on making the club a lively place.

The point is that we should be able to be fairly rude to each other within (constructive) reasons, and do things that people might find off the wall, but that is what making progress is all about.

Many of my friends tell me that some of the stuff I produce is rubbish (and not just films) and I try to be grateful for it. Honesty in the end is something deserving of respect. And sometimes they might even tell us we were right and it wasn't rubbish, and they were wrong about it! I often have to admit to that myself!
Michael Slowe
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How Can a Comp Judge be Helpful

Post by Michael Slowe »

The title of this thread is way off what we are now discussing, can we change it?

Ian, I have mentioned this before, why are you so upset by the politics at your club? Just make the films you want to make and if they are good enogh they will win things. Having seen a lot of your films many of them are good enough. Test your artistic judgement further by entering films in festivals both here and abroad.

Ned wrote so much good sense, of course styles, and with that tastes, are changing with art just as much as with fashion. It was ever thus. Picasso's early work was staid and conventional (but still brilliant) and he wanted to do more and we all see the results. Film has taken a long time to develop, sometimes due to technical restrictions although it didn't stop Eisenstein from shocking the world with his groundbreaking editing technique nearly 90 years ago. Of course young people should be encouraged to do their own thing and we can still judge their efforts against current work by old film makers like Ned and I. Why the arguement, it all seems plain eniugh to me!
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stingman
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Post by stingman »

I just wanted to point out to people that sometimes we have to go that one step further to get things done in our clubs. I want to encourage people to go to there local film club. You do learn so much and your films will be so much better. My story is one of trying to make it even more accsessable to new members and wanting to encourage the one`s that are there. Trying to make it excitiing and looking forward to the next meeting.

Sorry to twist the thread into something else.
I keep doing this. I will learn one day, or i`ll get a final written warning. I`m getting a collection of them!
Sorry guys...........

I`ll shut up 8)
Ian Gardner
Ian Gardner
Film Maker
Peter Thomlinson

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

But, Michael, you are one of those people who invite criticism, and are happy to be on an ever steeper learning curve! Many people are not like that. Judges should encourage the outlandish, whilst appreciating well made, traditional and standard film making. It should not be one or the other, but both.

And you may be right about the politics, and you tick me off about that sometimes. I probably won't change, it's part of me! Maybe I should make VERY political films in future, and you never know I MIGHT even do that sometime. And yes, that is a threat!! So be warned.

And to be totally fair to you, I know you encourage young film makers a lot, including even me, as young film maker ... ( well, it's a good try, and someone might believe I'm only 16 ...)
Roy

Thread Subject

Post by Roy »

This thread seems to being used by half a dozen members having a slight argument with each other over filming techniques, which I feel they are quite entitled to, But, bearling in mind, over 1800 people have viewed this thread and they haven't joined in to make a comment either way. perhaps the combatants should continue the argument on a new thread called perhaps NEW V TRADITIONAL. Roy
Peter Thomlinson

Re: Thread Subject

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

Roy wrote:This thread seems to being used by half a dozen members having a slight argument with each other over filming techniques, which I feel they are quite entitled to, But, bearling in mind, over 1800 people have viewed this thread and they haven't joined in to make a comment either way. perhaps the combatants should continue the argument on a new thread called perhaps NEW V TRADITIONAL. Roy
OK, good idea, you start it off Roy!!
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stingman
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Re: Thread Subject

Post by stingman »

Roy wrote:This thread seems to being used by half a dozen members having a slight argument with each other over filming techniques, which I feel they are quite entitled to, But, bearling in mind, over 1800 people have viewed this thread and they haven't joined in to make a comment either way. perhaps the combatants should continue the argument on a new thread called perhaps NEW V TRADITIONAL. Roy
Well Roy,
Start one then. Everyone has a right to start threads. The ones you have started seem to be threads for you wanting something :shock:
So don`t be shy Roy. Have some input.
Everybodys points are reconised, and have a right to there views.
Ian Gardner
Ian Gardner
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Peter Thomlinson

Re: Thread Subject

Post by Peter Thomlinson »

Roy wrote:This thread seems to being used by half a dozen members having a slight argument with each other over filming techniques, which I feel they are quite entitled to, But, bearling in mind, over 1800 people have viewed this thread and they haven't joined in to make a comment either way. perhaps the combatants should continue the argument on a new thread called perhaps NEW V TRADITIONAL. Roy
It's all Dave's fault for starting such interesting threads that are so wide ranging ...
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stingman
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Re: Thread Subject

Post by stingman »

Peter Thomlinson wrote: It's all Dave's fault for starting such interesting threads that are so wide ranging ...
I know. Does he get a warning letter. They are all the rage now. I feel that mine is like a Video Club ASBO!

Back onto topic....................

Ian Gardner
Ian Gardner
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