DVDs - Best format??

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Pat

DVDs - Best format??

Post by Pat »

Hi all,
During a recent discussion with some of the members of the forum )offline)the
subject of DVDs was raised. Basically, the question was asked "Are they good
enough for long term storage?"

Well as far as I'm concerned you can't copy your own films on to enough mediums
to safeguard you against the VHS/Betamax syndrome!
And even then, the debate about DVDs rages on.....not only do you have different
brands, dyes and speeds - they're also bringing out dual layer, blue-ray
etc where will it end??

There has also been some talk about people taking their Wedding DVDs back
to the film-maker saying that it won't play anymore - with a DVD, if if develops
a fault on it then the disk is invariably for the bin - at least on good
old VHS you could still salvage something from a ruined tape (even if it
jammed up in your video recorder!)

I've tried many disks and found various brands to be good and many to be
rubbish! The disks that seem to be the best are ones made with the G04 Ritek
dye. I've used them in all sorts of players and they are the ones that have
been rejected less. I always buy Grade A quality ones - never cut the cost
by buying anything else. I've also found that they are branded under different
names but Traxdata are one of the better ones.

As for storage - well it's a compressed format so it's always going to be
poorer than the mini dv recording. I must be one of the paranoid film-maker's
though as I keep a copy on mini-dv, dvd, SVHS and if I can, on the hard drive
as well!!

I'm currently using a printable surface Ritek dye disk which has proved to
be very good, with the addition that I can print direct to the disk surface.
It certainly looks the part as far as presentation of the film packaging
goes. And it costs less than a £1!!

But I'm sure the war of disk formats will rage on - especially with the new
formats emerging - which is why I keep it on tape and hard drive. I'll then
be in a position to take advantage of whatever medium we happen to be using.

I love the way I can make a presentable disk to hand over to some of the
actors in our films, with a printed disk, nice label in a decent DVD case,
it really looks the part. But I'm afraid that one day they'll ask me for
another copy as the original is faulty.

I don't know where IS the best place for long term storage so I just panic
and save it everywhere I can. I'd be interested to hear other people's views
of their findings of DVDs.

Regards,
Pat
AN

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by AN »

"Pat" <forums@theiac.org.uk> wrote:
I don't know where IS the best place for long term storage so I just panic
and save it everywhere I can. I'd be interested to hear other people's views
of their findings of DVDs.
Ah well, all this modern techno land, is really designed to take
big money off us in exchange for wacking great bigger headaches and worry.

I too save and keep on miniDV and HDD.

But you cannot beat good ol 16mm Kodachrome.
My films, made on this medium over 40 years ago, are as good
now as the day they left Kodak's soup urns.

Albert...urning his keep.
Ned C

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Ned C »

There are a number of points to be discussed about DVDs :

1. Our recent study has shown that PAL and NTSC DVDs can be played with cheap
DVD players here in the USA - my USD 45 Sungale plays both, my USD 200 Sony
only plays NTSC. Why is this important? In the past most Festivals specify
that the entrants must be either NTSC or PAL, rarely do festivals accept
both (the BIAFF is one of the few that accepts both standards). Here in the
US we are looking to open up our Festival to both and the best route seems
to be by accepting PAL DVDs as the video projectors will automatically detect
the incoming signal and play either.

2. The picture stored on a DVD (MPEG2) is inferior to that of miniDV (both
are compressed formats) so at this time we still archive on tape in the DV
format and most of our old analogue material has been re-rcorded to DV tape
with an apparent improvement in the picture, there seems to be less noise.
Another good way of saving projects is to save them to hot-swappable hard
drives; as HD prices have fallen here in the US it is possible to find HDs
at between 50 cents and 75 cents per gb when there are special offers. The
advantage of saving to a HD is that the edit is saved as a project and can
easily be reworked.

3. DVDs are great for playback, much better quality than VHS but are not
suitable for archiving for recovery of the picture and sound - Tom Hardwick
has written in detail about this.

Ned C
Dave Watterson

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Dave Watterson »

The biggest problem in archiving video is not so much
the medium on which it is stored, but ensuring there
will be equipment capable of showing it.

Every archive worth its salt has some doo-hickey knocked
up with Meccano and gaffer tape to run older cine
material with odd gauges, perfs and pitches. That sort
of mechanical device is realtively easy to devise.

In 50 years time, how do you re-create a mini-dv player
... and one which allows for tape aging and distortion
too ???

BUT - here's the rub. For how long do we want our movies
to survive? One human generation (16 years) perhaps so
that our kids and grandkids can see them. More than that?
Why?

Dave
Ned C

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Ned C »

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
The biggest problem in archiving video is not so much
the medium on which it is stored, but ensuring there
will be equipment capable of showing it.

Every archive worth its salt has some doo-hickey knocked
up with Meccano and gaffer tape to run older cine
material with odd gauges, perfs and pitches. That sort
of mechanical device is realtively easy to devise.

In 50 years time, how do you re-create a mini-dv player
... and one which allows for tape aging and distortion
too ???

BUT - here's the rub. For how long do we want our movies
to survive? One human generation (16 years) perhaps so
that our kids and grandkids can see them. More than that?
Why?

Dave

At a personal level I just transfer from the last format to the current format,
ie all the old video8 and Hi8 material worth saving is now on DV tape and
will eventually move on to whatever succeeds DV. The advantage in the digital
world is that the quality is maintained. I assume that the national archives
do somethinmg similar, I know there is a salt mine here in the US where old
films are stored and with the deamands of TV there is a thriving recovery
industry.

How long to keep it all - having researched for historians I know they turn
over every obscure corner of human detritus and extract information from
it. I am sure that future historians will find "home movies" particularly
interesting as they capture the cultural setting of the time and with sound;
the accents - just watch those old pre war documentaries and you will realise
how much the accents of British English have changed in a relatively short
time.

Ned C
Pat

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Pat »

Why?
This must have been the most thought provoking response I've came across!!
I can only imagine historians or long lost family members having a right
good laugh at what we got up to with our equipment in years to come! I can't
see my films being shown at competitions in the future - but that's not why
I make them anyway.Most of my films are made for specific events etc and
sadly see light of day more than a few times after that (usual competitions
etc) and apart from family I wouldn't want to inflict them on anyone else....but
I still want to keep them in the best quality that I can - if that's possible.
Ok, so Kodachrome is out for me, digital age and all that, but I've seen
some pretty awful films from the 60's on Kodak film and they fare no better
than my old VHS which are showing signs of wear even now.

But Dave's response did make me think- once I've finished editing a film
and it's been shown to all the fmaily, done the rounds at the club events
etc - what happens to it? Basically, and I'll bet most of us are the same,
it gets put away and forgotten about. Only to be g#brought out to maybe be
part of a club compiliation tape!

Or do your films have a better shelf life than mine? Do you still look at
your kodachrome films with awe - at the "film" itself or the how the emulsion
has maintained the colour?

Pat
AN

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by AN »

"Pat" <scottish_cam@hotmail.com> wrote:
But Dave's response did make me think- once I've finished editing a film
and it's been shown to all the fmaily, done the rounds at the club events
etc - what happens to it? Basically, and I'll bet most of us are the same,
it gets put away and forgotten about. Only to be g#brought out to maybe
be
part of a club compiliation tape!
Take this further and consider how good ideas are retained or lost
for future posterity.
Jokes even! Thoughts! Just imagine over the ages all
the intersting thoughts millions of unusual folk have had,
only to be lost because no one recorded them with pen/camera etc.
Unless someone is in the right place etc and tells or records it,
then it is lost forever.
Imagine the countless ideas and thoughts long since lost. Many
are now being recorded on the internet in various ways,
by the writen word or image, but how long will they last?
"Dust to dust, ashes to ashes....."
Albert....lost in thought.
Paul Miley

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Paul Miley »

Why should we try and store our images as long as possible?

Because we can.

We are the first generation to be able to record digital imagery and make
copies relatively cheaply. Think of this - if you were contacted by some
long lost cousin tomorrow and you were told that he/she had just found some
turn of the century footage of your ancestor/s, wouldn't you be interested?


I hope to be able to digitise all of my old films/videos and make copies
on DVD/tape (Secure Digital cards soon if we are to believe the latest developments!)and
pass these on to any relation who is interested. Also, there are I'm sure
different regional archivists (ours is the Wewssex Film and Video Archive)
who would gladly take images and preserve them. I'm thankful that they do
because I've recently been able to access some old films to help with a project
I'm currently working on. At the time, I'm sure the cine camera owner just
went out for (it seems) a day trip. Probably one of many but I was very excited
to see the footage decades later! Fascinating.

There are millions of camcorders around but only a small percentage of people
like ourselves who put a little thought into what we are doing. This will
be visual treasure in time to come. I'm proud of the fact that in my own
lifetime (I wish I'd started this hobby sooner), I've helped to record a
little bit of history - companies now forgotten and characters who will live
on even though they have passed through life. British society/industry is
changing at an alarming rate, many trades are in decline or have already
gone. As an example, the project I've been working on for the last sixteen
months is about a small(ish) family run business here in the South. In this
short period, 38 members of staff have come and gone for various reasons
(not uncommon).

cheers

Paul
Dave Watterson

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Dave Watterson »

We are the first generation to be able to record digital imagery and make
copies relatively cheaply. Think of this - if you were contacted by some
long lost cousin tomorrow and you were told that he/she had just found some
turn of the century footage of your ancestor/s, wouldn't you be interested?
OK that's a case I have to accept. Our work may have some curiosity value
in the future - and better our structured pieces than some random cassettes
from holiday movies or a collection of digital phone snaps takesn at drunken
parties.

Dave
AN

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by AN »

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
We are the first generation to be able to record digital imagery and make
copies relatively cheaply. Think of this - if you were contacted by some
long lost cousin tomorrow and you were told that he/she had just found
some
turn of the century footage of your ancestor/s, wouldn't you be interested?

OK that's a case I have to accept. Our work may have some curiosity value
in the future - and better our structured pieces than some random cassettes
from holiday movies or a collection of digital phone snaps takesn at drunken
parties.
No Dave, If those in the future wish to study our way of life etc then
it will be to the unstructured, random cassettes/holiday movies they will

turn to not the structured(?) amateur actors struggling away!

The drunken parties will show true human behavior, not the actors.
Albert...not a party to it.
Dave Watterson

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by Dave Watterson »

The drunken parties will show true human behavior, not the actors.
Aaargh! He's right again! Maybe that is when all those cell-phone
cameras will reveal their true purpose ... creating a visual archive
for future historians.

That sounds like an idea from Jasper Fforde.

Just as we wonder if everyone between the wars spoke in that affected
style of "Anyone for tennis, Cynthia" that they used in Brief
Encounter, so future generations will be amazed at our accents,
fashions and idea of a fun party.

Dave
AN

Re: DVDs - Best format??

Post by AN »

"Dave Watterson" <david.filmsocs@virgin.net> wrote:
Just as we wonder if everyone between the wars spoke in that affected
style of "Anyone for tennis, Cynthia" that they used in Brief
Encounter, so future generations will be amazed at our accents,
fashions and idea of a fun party.
Dave, which will appear the most eloquent, the affected style of
the '30s or the incessant sexual ramblings of this generation?
Albert...rambling on!
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