FRAME RATES IN 'STILL' CAMERAS

[Pqtrick]

Another quick question about Premier?

Although the answer may not be related to that. I will continue. I have a Panasonic Lumex still camera, which was bought just for that purpose. It is used for taking still pictures by the score. It has a video feature but states that the frame rate is 30fps. As I did not buy it for its video feature, I decided to ignore this feature.

However, reading this months L'ECRAN which is the magazine of the French FFCV, there is an article entitled Filmer avec un appareil photo pourquoi pas? The cameras referred to are heavyweight Nikon and Canon still cameras. These are heavyweight in terms of cost as well. In the small print for each camera, the frame rates for PAL video are 24 and 30 frames per second respectively. There is no mention of editing the video.

My Lumex camera is described as PAL 30fps. How is video handled in respect of editing for these cameras? Any ideas.

[Dave Watterson]

On many NLE systems there is no problem "speeding up" a length of video. You would shorten it 83%.

The catch is that the video will almost certainly be NTSC and have frames of 640x480.
Again many NLE systems will let you expand the image to 720x576 for PAL.

SOME NLE systems will convert NTSC to PAL but that could be a problem.

Of course you could shoot exclusively on the still camera and set your NLE system to make an NTSC video at 30 frames-per-second.
Since you are living in SECAM land these days, what TV system do French non-commercial movie makers use for their own work?

- Dave

[Mike Shaw]

It is something that has been puzzling me for a while now. I have a Creative Veda HD - it's one of those phone-looking things that is actually a video camera - HD AVI files. The spec says it is 30fps PAL. I believe - but haven't checked properly - that the files are AVCHD format. Thing is they don't seem to play back any slower on a 25fps timeline. It is in my mind when I get a moment - and remember - to video a clock with a sweeping second hand, to see what the effect is on the time line.

I bought it as a 'serendipity' camcorder - those occasions when you say 'I wish I had my cam with me for that..'. It slips into the top pocket, and is ready for filming within a couple of seconds. I also have the Kodak Zx1 - same sort of thing except it takes MOV files - and requires an SD card. (I think I might eBay that one... it has a couple of advantages over the Creative, but I still prefer the Creative one).

Point is, both shoot at 30fps, both 16/9 HD, and both claim to be PAL. So why 30fps????

[Pqtrick]

Thanks Dave and Mike for your replies.

I am however just still a bit mystified.

To answer Dave's points first regarding video format here in France. As far as I am aware, all the analogue TV's here, while being for SECAM terrestrial signals, they can cope with PAL inputs for the likes of me when I came over to show my video. Most recorders are dual SECAM/PAL. Camcorders are all PAL, so with that side of things there is no problem.

When we moved over here, our PAL TV came with us and the digital box converted the signal via a SCART input. Our latest TV a SONY BRAVIO does not differentiate. I think they work on any TV signal as it is digital and HD.

Now back to the still camera. This is a Panasonic Lumix FZ28. I spelt it wrong first time round. The manual is an action packed 120 odd pages, yet it say little about the video feature. I have looked at the one-line English version and I am still none the wiser that with the French one.

The output for video is switch-able, NTSC/PAL in an array of sizes, 4:3 16:9 & HD, in diverse frame sizes, but the frame rate is stated as 30fps! It describes,if I am reading it right: Images animée Quicktime Motion JPEG.

So, I am as confused as Mike on this one.

I am a bit puzzled by Dave's suggestion of reducing the duration by 87%? would achieve desired effect.

A first reaction was try it and see. But with various options of input for Premier and then what to do for export to tape, if I wanted to comeback to miniDV. This is a real poser!

[Dave Watterson]

Let's deal with 30fps which I did not explain sensibly:
one second of video:
------------------------- PAL, 25 frames
------------------------------ NTSC 30 frames
If played on a PAL system (other problems aside) the NTSC clip would run 1.2 seconds

When dropped onto a Premiere timeline, you could select the NTSC clip, right-click, choose the speed/duration option and reduce the duration of the NTSC clip. In this example you would just set the duration to 1 second.
If the clip was a normal length, possibly even some minutes long you would have to calculate the correct running time. It works out at roughly 83%.

Sorry I confused the issue by saying it carelessly and mentioning percentage.

There is also a speed control in Premiere on the same right-cick menu option and that is set in a percentage.
Set it to 120% to make the 30 frames go by in 1 second. That is obviously easier because it saves calculation!

- Dave

[Dave Watterson]

As to the video output ...

It is in Apple's Quicktime format (nnn.mov files) which are interchangeable with MP4, provided you don't want multi-channel sound!

It is capable of near-HD shooting video clips at 1280 by 720 pixels size (16:9) and at 30 frames per second.

If I read the bumf correctly it can also shoot
standard definition 640 by 480 pixels (4:3) at 30 frames per second
and 320 by 240 (4:3) at either 20 or 30 frames per second.
And standard definition 848 by 480 (16:9) at 30 frames per second.

So you should be able to import it (as a mov file) into most video editors in either the 640 by 480 or the HD mode (if your editor supports HD).

BUT IT WILL STILL BE NTSC SO FAR AS I CAN TELL

For standard definition:

You could just work in NTSC and output to a DVD when you want people in UK and Europe to see it ... on the grounds that the vast majority of our DVD players can handle NTSC. For your own archives you could output on MiniDV tape but in the NTSC format.

But if you want to mix it with footage shot on your PAL video camcorder you will have to convert the footage to PAL. There are various ways to do it using software ... most of which work ... sort of. The good ones are expensive.

For high definition:

You might get away with just a speed change (see my previous post). PAL and NTSC difference remain in the HD world but with less impact - really only the frame rate. I have not been able to get a clear picture of any other issues about converting from one television format to the other in HD.

- Dave

[Mike Shaw]

Added ... Oh - pipped to the 'post' by Dave's last post ... this was in answer to the 25/30fps confusion....

But Dave, that assumes if it is 30fps, it is NTSC - and that means in size format as well as fps. The xy pixel sizes of PAL and NTSC are not the same of course (720x576, PAL; 720x480, NTSC). As far as I can tell without fully analysing the files produced, they are PAL size.

I really must do the test of filming a clock, because that should show what is happening when placed on a PAL timeline. I can equally switch the timeline to NTSC and recheck, to get a proper comparison.

Maybe Xmas day I'll have a spare moment ... ??? !!!

[Dave Watterson]

Mike - the information I quoted in the previous post explains that the Standard Definition video this camera takes ARE in the NTSC sizes.
With High Definition the same sizes apply to both PAL and NTSC systems.
- Dave

PS I think you meant NTSC is 640x480.

[Pqtrick]

Thanks for the info so far -

I am wondering whether all this is worth it! I now have a couple of clips from my still camera in Premier. I started by setting the camera to NTSC @ 30fps, shooting some pics and importing them into Premier.

The clips are 1280x720 and the project is set as HD. I am unable to import MOV files into either of my two editing packages. Therefore, I downloaded a free-ware package [free to download!] to convert from NTSC.MOV to NTSC.AVI. So the files have a watermark on them. Basically it works, the images on the computer screen look OK once they have been rendered. Rendering takes a time, one short clip of 7 sec took about 4minutes. It was as if the little man in the computer was drawing each frame by hand. It is perhaps that my computer runs on steam.

What I just wanted to achieve when I started this thread, was to simply to use my still cameras video function and edit the results. Life it would seem is not that simple. These cameras must only be destined for use by Uncle Sam's Apple Mac users. My NTSC.avi still has to be outputted or exported to something!

The initial idea, as introduced in the magazine, I opened the thread with was 'film with your still camera - Why not?' The characteristic of the ratio of the captor and the lens, throws the background out of focus and it achieves a 'cine look'. With the HD quality there were the so exciting possibilities of shooting an interlude film and adding some music from the archives of Mr Kettle-by.[!]

I may keep on tinkering, it is almost as exciting as digging out the old super8 camera and using that – any ideas on how to edit?

[Mike Shaw]

I need to do some more tests: I shot a movie with the 30fps Creative Vada, loaded it into Studio 14, and it registers as 29.97fps PAL !!!???. However, the image was all 'wrong' - it looks like an interlacing problem. I think Studio is as confused as I am. After transcribing the video to a different codec, the picture is OK, but the frame rate is still 29.97/30. I am going to copy the file over to my dedicated video editing machine and see what happens in Liquid - where the timeline can be user determined (in Studio, the timeline takes on the properties of the first clip installed onto the timeline - so that's why it went to 29.97/30fps).

The plot thickens ...