Short Films

A forum for sharing views on the art of film, video and AV sequence making as well as on competitions, judging and festivals.
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Peter Copestake
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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Short Films

Post by Peter Copestake »

I rarely make short films, usually 20 minutes upwards, as I don't feel I can do justice to my subjects in a shorter time.
Do those of you who do, start with a 'short' idea or do you find you can cut longer films down to the popular 10 - 15 minutes?
This has arisen from trying to cut from 30 minutes (made from 3 hours of tape) to 14.
I have done it, but know how much you are not going to see, and wonder whether I would be better to concentrate on a very small part and do that in the greater depth that my films usually have.
Ideas and opinions would be appreciated.
Please don't tell me how much you can get into a 30 second advert. I don't think I've ever responded to a TV ad. except for the delightful 'Boursin' ones but I found I prefer mature Cheddar anyway!
Peter.
Peter Copestake
Michael Slowe
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Re: Short Films

Post by Michael Slowe »

Peter, this is, if I may say so, just my bag. I make documentaries and always fall foul of the 'keep it short' brigade. I used to manage with fast cut to music 'impressions' which, although very popular and winning lots of awards, did not really satisfy. Like you I wanted to delve deeper and convey more than just an impression. The problem is that at festivals, particularly amateur ones, films are shown in quite long programmes and organisers do not like having to accommodate a 45 minuter in the middle. You will (rightly) be told that as long as the film is good enough it will hold up for that length of time but do they really think that?

For my latest production I had to shoot some 35 hours of material in order to ensure that I had all I might need to tell the story. I finished up with two versions, one of 39 and the other of 43 minutes. One of the minor Sky TV channels wants to show the film (no pay for me chaps but hopefully some for the IAC - I'm working on it!), they like the 43 minutes but have asked if I could give them 58. I have re visited and have done this but inevitably the structure suffers because, although I have new material and topics, it all effects what's already there.

My advice to you is make the film that, in your opinion, does the job. Generally speaking, concentrating on a few salient aspects is the thing to do, and it is tricky deciding on your own. Show a rough cut to some people whose judgement you respect and get a 'feel' from them as the film runs. It's surprising how feelings are communicated, you will know before they say a word if and where you have gone wrong!
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Willy
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Re: Short Films

Post by Willy »

I make documentaries and always fall foul of the 'keep it short' brigade.
Advantages/disadvantages long films
I have the same "problem". My documentaries and travel movies are usually longer than 25 minutes. But I always feel I must show the most essential things of a city, region, country etc... It means landscapes, important streets, monuments and buildings, special events, tourist attractions, etc... It creates diversity and variation. But if you only show these things your film can still be boring. You must always try to show something extraordinary. Something that the viewer has not seen yet. In such a film you must always try to create the local atmosphere. For instance you ask a 'native' to say something functional or essential in your film.

In most of my films there are acting scenes in it. They form the thread of my story. But I feel that 10 to 15 minutes are not enough to achieve my object. Just like Peter and Michzel. And just like Michael says : a long film has its disavantages when taking part in festivals or competitions.

Disadvantage short feature films
In a short feature film it is difficult to show the evolution in the behaviour of a character. You need more time. In other words : you need more time to create the right story line. When watching a short film the viewer must concentrate all the time. A distraction of a few seconds can be "fatal". The viewer has missed an essential detail. An example : you can see the hand of a person. So a close up. That person dials the telephone number of the police. In the film it means only one or two seconds. This is a very essential moment to understand the story. Lack of concentration at that particular moment means confusion in the line of reasoning. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

Choice at festivals
At BIAFF there are 4 rooms. You receive a programme for each room. You make a choice. Your long film is shown in room A together with 3 or 4 other short ones. In room B 8 short films are shown. Result : most friends prefer room B. The more films they can see the better. That's what most friends think and maybe they are right! I think we have already talked about that problem on this forum.

Criticasters
In Belgium film critics (or rather criticasters) always try to find mistakes in your film. I mean mistakes in continuity, photography, sound, etc... These mistakes can result in a harsh and scathing judgement! The shorter your film the less technical mistakes you can make. Luckily in Britain the story line, the atmosphere, and other things are more decisive.
By the way : I always find it interesting when people say what mistakes have been made, but I can only appreciate this when they also say what the qualities are of that particular film.

I am not against critics. On the contrary! But I am against criticasters.

So my opinion is : do what you want to do and try to inform and entertain the audience.
Now I have just made an other epic story (26 minutes). It took some months to edit it. I enjoyed it very much. Good for someone who is retired. Life is not boring. But maybe my next films will be one minute movies. I admit : it has something to do with my camera. I have already told you this somewhere else.
Willy Van der Linden
Mike Shaw

Re: Short Films

Post by Mike Shaw »

It can be as much of a challenge to make a short movie (that works) as a longer one in which one has time to develop a theme - (very) short films have no time to 'tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, then sum up what you've told them'. (Or is that the maxim for an essay? Hmm).

It is a different kind of movie - often, simply a 'joke' of some kind.

... A 'cartoon' that relieves the pressure between longer and perhaps more serious films.

....A short sharp filler film that can be slotted in to help balance the program...

That's the sort of film I like/prefer making - but not using jokes from the Reader's Digest.

But, I have made, and am making, longer films. The two types involve totally different regimes, I thnk.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: Short Films

Post by Dave Watterson »

First I should point out that there are a couple of "amateur friendly" festivals which do accept longer films: BIAFF and
Danube - Rousse
Docutah
Outdoor Films
Railway & Transport Films
Rob Knox Film Festival
Tallinn
Up to 21
Details of them all are on the IAC website under EVENTS > COMPETITIONS AND FESTIVALS.

But of course it is true that "our" audiences and judges are acclimatised to watching films in the 10 to 15 minute range. That is one of many reasons why I wish our members and judges would watch more commercial films. If you are used to 120 or 150 films, then 45 minutes of top-quality non-commercial work is fine.

Truth to tell when Jan and I sit down on an evening to watch a commercial film on DVD we usually watch some of the extras as well and so it is not unusual to spend 3 hours on the process overall.

Dave
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fraught
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Re: Short Films

Post by fraught »

I always start out with a film to just tell the story i want to tell... if it ends up being 5, 10, 20 minutes... then so be it.

If i was making something for a particular festival, then of course i would keep a close eye on the running time... but generally, i don't let it constrain me.

I have recently found holding a 'test' screening really helpful! I held one recently for a film i helped make called 'A Darker Shade of Red'. Off the back of it, i ended up reshooting some scenes, and doing some major re-editing. We even altered the ending too! So i thoroughly recommend this... and i will certainly be doing it more often!
Only Boring People Get Bored
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Chris Abram
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Re: Short Films

Post by Chris Abram »

I am one of the long film brigade and have been chastised many times over the length. To supplement my pension I make SIV's about the heritage of my area. These are usually dvd's with a duration of around 2hrs30 to 2hrs45 mins..... and lots of people buy them! They do not have to be viewed all in one go as I like my customers to to enjoy the videos and if it takes the consumption of two bottles of wine, then so be it. There are plenty of chapter points located throughout the film at which to pause.
Obviously, being an amateur member of a video club as well as the IAC I have to keep any competition entries to around 11 or 12 mins. This usually works well. Because my only available time is spent researching, scripting, filming or editing sequences for whatever is my latest heritage production I tend to make my films in sequences of, believe it or not, no longer than 12mins.
I have no intention of changing my ways because I do not think that competition rules are the be all and end all of why I just love making videos.
Chris Abram
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Dave Watterson
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Re: Short Films

Post by Dave Watterson »

When it comes to competition rules Chris knows what he is talking about. He was the creative force that kicked off "The Erics" festival as part of Morecambe Bay Movie Makers golden jubilee celebrations. Sadly lack of support meant it was not practical to continue the event in subsequent years. It is fascinating to hear about a moviemaker who is happy to tackle all lengths of film.

It seems to me that Peter - who started this discussion - is pretty much fixed in "long film mode" as is Michael Slowe most of the time. Willy switches happily between long productions and short ones. Most of us would be scared to contemplate a full-scale 50 minute production.

Dave
Peter Copestake
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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Re: Short Films

Post by Peter Copestake »

Thanks to all of you though I hope there may be more responses
What I have gathered is not to try to make a long film too short.
I have been working on a film of Prague that was shot ten years ago and never edited which means it was taken on Hi8 - a pity, because it shows, but it has been interesting to reduce 3 hours to thirty + minutes then to 13.5 minutes, and keep the flavour of the Old City but I am so conscious of what has been left out.
However, by sharing the problem I have been made to think more about it myself. Perhaps it would have been better to make a short film of the Old Town Hall. People go to it to see the Astronomical clock and don't go to the top in the lift. The views are amazing. Nor to the basement where the archaeological excavations have been made available to wander through and artefacts arranged in periods to represent the history of the city - like Jorvik but much more intimate and less theatrical.
But there might be a problem - if I had taken enough film it would last 30 minutes, at least, to show people what they have missed!
Special thanks to Michael. Other posts have led me to his dog-training film. What an impressive man the trainer is! It should be shown widely as a condition of owning dogs.
Round here walkies are too often poo-time. I wonder how the trainer deals with that, Michael?
Thanks again,
Peter.
Peter Copestake
Michael Slowe
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Re: Short Films

Post by Michael Slowe »

Thanks Peter for your kind comments. Actually I now have a better film on dogs (well hounds actually) and their keeper and trainer which I think you'll like. Watch out for it at BIAFF in April. Unfortunately I can't be there as I have rather an important family anniversary that falls then. If there's a link that you can log on to I'll try and let you know if you can't make Harrogate.
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