Judges critiques - a criticism!

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Fingercuff
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Fingercuff »

Thank you for the kind words about my film 'Commitment' Willy! Its great to hear about it being screened (and enjoyed!) around the world. I was truly thrilled that it won the top prize at the AMPS festival.

I wanted to get my new film 'Dancer' (www.dancerfilm.com) ready for the BIAFF this year but unfortunately the post production took a lot longer than originally envisioned and I missed the deadline. Will submit for 2011 instead.

Jim
Peter Copestake
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Peter Copestake »

[quote="ned c"]For really cryptic comments enter the Morecambe Intl!!


I was somewhat amazed to be asked to judge here - had to decline - 9am - 9pm !!
My comments would have been cryptic long before the end.
Peter Copestake
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Peter Copestake »

the opening caption did not say that it was to be given away as you describe. It stated that the film was made to be shown to disabled visitors unable to walk around the house, this puts a quite different perspective on the purpose for which the film was made.
I was glad to hear that this film had received an award as sometimes when I have made a film for a specific audience the comment has been 'not really suitable for competition' and I ask, mentally, "Why not?" The rules never say the film must have been made for competition and have no other value.
Peter Copestake
Chrisbitz
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Chrisbitz »

I'm afraid I completely don't understand the confusion here.

If I made a film listing stamp collecting statistics, which would be VERY interesting for an expert stamp collector, would I expect it to be judged on an even standing with a documentary made about the history of the great fire of london?
Of course not!
(I appreciate that's an extreme example, but perfectly relevant)

The rules don't specificaly state that the film must be made for that competition and have no other value, but surely common sense should suggest to you that unless one or more of your judges are members of the target audience for your film, it's unlikely to get good/any marks for entertainment value?
I like to make films, this is- my Youtube account. What's yours?

"all of the above is nothing more than nonsensical ramblings, and definately should NOT be misconstrued as anyone's official policy"
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

The film quite definitely met its purpose admirably - to be shown to people unable to actually take the tour (I mis-remembered the purpose outlined at the beginning. Apologies). It 'took the tour' in great detail. and was crammed with useful and interesting information. No question about that.

For those who wanted to take the tour.

For those who didn't want to take the tour, and who perhaps have little interest in such places - it is a different story.

Now this can be said of any documentary - if one has no interest whatsoever in the subject of a documentary, then that documentary can tend to become soporific. It is up to the film-maker to make his subject captivating by any technique available. Sometimes the visual treatment can sustain an interest, but in this case, it was, in effect, two 'talking heads' with very little in the way of insert edits or variation. (My memory of the film is that we seemed to go from room to room, discussing artifacts in each).

While I can see the reasons why it well deserved recognition for content and detail, for me the reasons for showing it were not quite so obvious - apart from the fact that 'award winners should be shown' of course.

This is just my opinion of course. Something that interests me is equally going to fail to hit the spot for someone else. I recognise and appreciate that. I also appreciate that, for this particular film, bearing in mind the intended 'market', the approach was correct.

I agree that the comment "not suitable for competition" for documentaries such as this one is misplaced. I think I do question its suitability for showing to a 'mass' audience though.
tom hardwick
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by tom hardwick »

Philip Bridge has had an interesting letter published in FVM this month - page 27. Did any of you read it? Philip's not on the web which is a great pity as he often puts forward interesting slants on amateur movies. I've sent Garth a reply to his letter, agreeing with him that '3 judges condensed into one' is not the way to go as far as write-ups are concerned.

tom.
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Interesting! But can I draw attention to my post which started this whole thread - detailing the judgements on two of my films at one festival, with a combined total of less than 20 words, and that is including the definite and indefinite articles.

That's equal to the number of words in this sentence - as the combined wordage for judgements on two films.

In such circumstances - I'd have welcomed the combined efforts of three judges!

Both judgements were complementary - which is fine to a point - but neither film won. That didn't worry me at all - they were shown, which to me is the main thing - but I'd like to have known what improvements could have been made, or why they simply failed to hit a top spot in the judge's eyes. 'Let down by the script' or 'needs a little more trimming' or 'poor choice of camera angles' or 'beaten by a better, more original idea, executed better' - or whatever - would not have offended me in the slightest, but would have given me something to work on next time. There was a good reason they didn't win: tell me! Not so I can win, but so I can make better films for others to enjoy watching!
Peter Copestake
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Peter Copestake »

As one who wandered off the track, sorry. Mike is surely right; such brief comments are impolite at best.
Peter Copestake
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Willy
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Willy »

quote="Mike Shaw" ... Interesting! But can I draw attention to my post which started this whole thread - detailing the judgements on two of my films at one festival, with a combined total of less than 20 words, and that is including the definite and indefinite articles...

I understand your feelings, Mike.
Receiving detailed judgements is one of the reasons why I enter two, three or four films every year. I always tell my Belgian friends that they may receive more than one report. That's more important than receiving a certificate.

Indeed, Mike, you are right. "Poor choice of camera angles, etc. ..." are very useful critics. This is one of the possiblities to encourage other friends to take part in BIAFF. They want to know how they could have improved their film(s) and how they can make even better films in the future.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that this year there were more films than ever before. This gives a pleasant feeling, but it may also result in poorer judgements. The judges don't have enough time to show their great expertise when writing reports. That's what I fear. Maybe there were too many films for a too limited number of judges.

In my club films are prepared all the time. They are criticised all the time. "If I were you I would do this and that ..." That's what you hear all the time. "Look there is a mistake in continuity ! ... First an 'establishing shot' and then close ups' would be better I think ... I would swap these two shots ... " One or two weeks later the filmmaker comes back with his new version. It's already much better but it is criticised again.

In my club we have the opportunity to show our films many times. I wonder if this is also done in British clubs. Once an English friend asked me to see his film and give some suggestions in order to improve it. I wonder if he felt that I had constructive intentions by suggesting things. I also showed his film in my club. Not everybody has the character to listen to the feelings of other friends.

Anyway, the more individual reports we get after BIAFF the better. BIAFF is an international film festival and the reports create extra motivation for foreigners to take part. I have the impression that this year the average of foreign films was not higher than last year.
Willy Van der Linden
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Dave Watterson
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Dave Watterson »

I too like to see film makers receiving several crits of their film ... but consider the maths.

249 films came to BIAFF 2010
if each got a minimum of 3 crits that would be 747 crits
let's say any one judge could write about 20 crits
(at present each writes 15 - 18 crits)
747/20 ... we would need at least 36 judges for the first-stage selection
normally we have 15 judges at first stage
2.5 times as many judges means the cost of the judging weekend - which is a major part of the competition costs - would rise 2.5 times
so logically we would expect the already high entry fees to rise 2.5 times ...

Hmmm.

-Dave
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

I think you're making a case for a 'combined' crit from several judges Dave - if so, I am quite happy with that.

As long as it is more than 8 or 9 words - and/or really provides constructive help!

I have no complaint whatsoever with the crits I got from the BIAFF judges this year - on the contrary, they pointed to how improvements could be made, politely and wisely.

Thanks!
tom hardwick
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by tom hardwick »

I'm gald you've done the maths Dave. Now what about sending that into the FVM letters page to counteract Mr Bridge's rant against the machine. Please do it.
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Willy
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:I too like to see film makers receiving several crits of their film ... but consider the maths.
... so logically we would expect the already high entry fees to rise 2.5 times ...

Hmmm.



-Dave
Yes, you are right, Dave. I always forget that on the Continent most regional and national competitions are subsidised.
But because of the recession some authorities are not willing to give money anymore. I have already told you that the Benelux Film Festival will not take place in the Netherlands next year because the organisers do not receive any money.
Everything is in decline. Some years ago the judges in a regional competition in Belgium stayed in a hotel together with their wife and had a drink "à volonté" in the bar. I was told that they preferred whisky. Luckily they didn't have to write
crits ! Ned has already told us that we must be happy that BIAFF sends crits to the filmmakers and that professional film festivals do not always do this. On the other hand I understand Mike.

Everything is in decline ... Yes. Last week my club organised its last Gala Projection. We celebrated our 50th Anniversary but at the same time we decided to stop our activities. The loss of our clubhouse and the loss of a very good friend was decisive to take that decision. We didn't make any publicity for that film evening. We wanted to keep things intimate. But there were still 60 people. An article appeared in the local newspaper. It said : "Focus 50th Anniversary Celebration with a Tear". The journalist wrote very nice things about my (former) club. "Unbelievable !" This was the first word of his newspaper article.

"The End is Near ! ". I remember a man standing in Speakers' Corner in London many years ago. He had a board in his hand with these words. Indeed, the end is near for my club. I was chairman for 22 years ! 30th June is the last day of our existance. I mean of my club. In the mean time I joined an other one and I still feel very happy or let's say : I have mixed feelings now.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Dave Watterson »

We are all sorry to hear about the closing of (one of) your cine clubs, Willy. The loss of any club is a shame. At least you did it in style with a celebration.
=======================

As for judging ...

Entrants to the Guernsey Lily usually get at least three separate crits. Now they usually have about 150 entries - though perhaps this year will be a bumper one with the closing date ten days away.

But for the first stage selection Guernsey sends copies of the films to each judge, who can assess them and write them up at leisure. Of course that is a huge load of work for the judges! It also means a long gap between the closing date and the final judging.

The Guernsey approach does, however, give a better degree of consistency in grading the films.

-Dave
ned c
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by ned c »

Sorry to read of the end of your club, Willy, but this is an increasing situation in the amateur movie world, there are very few clubs left here in the USA. The trend is now for a group to get together, make a movie and put it on YouTube or Vimeo and then reform for their next production. The social element is no longer a part of the process, but then I read that this is happening with many of the traditional special interest clubs.

Judging will always be contentious and we find it increasingly difficult to get judges and have them write notes that are helpful to the film maker. In an attempt to improve the situation we are putting together a set of guidelines to help judges write notes for the AMPS Festivals, we are not telling them how to judge but rather explain their judgements to the entrant. Are there any such notes/guidelines out there? I have taken note of the comments here and any more ideas/suggestions welcome. Thanks

ned c
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