Judges critiques - a criticism!

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Mike Shaw

Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

I enter competitions for two reasons: one, to get a wider audience than my family and the local club, and two, for the judges critiques: they help me to learn and guide me to do better things.

I regard the entry fee for competitions to be partly a payment towards receiving those judges critiques.

So imagine my utter disappointment when the critiques for my two entries into the Frome Festival were returned to me ...

The first was just one sentence of 8 words.
The second was two sentences, together amounting to just 11 words
(Both these critique word counts include indefinite articles and conjunctions).

I really do think competition organisers should ensure they use judges who understand the full import of judging. I don't question their judgement - that is what they're there for. But I would like to know the reasons for their judgement, what bits they liked perhaps, but more importantly, what I could or should have done to improve the movie and have it 'marked higher', and so on. Only if it is an outright winner would I expect the advice to be perhaps limited. But even then...

Needless to say, my films didn't win - I really didn't expect them to. But I did expect a few tips on where and how they could have been improved.

Thankfully, the BIAFF judgements did provide excellent guidance on how the same two films could have been improved.

On the occasions that I've been involved in judging, I considered it would be insulting to write anything less than at least one paragraph.

The question is, am I asking for or expecting too much?
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Stephen
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Stephen »

Good post Mike!

I do not think you are expecting too much at all....
A paragraph is the absolute minimum I would expect from any judge on any of my films entered into a competition.
After all we can post our films onto Utoob and get 100's of 1 liner comments in days...

BIAFF is pretty good at making sure you get those much awaited comments which are the heartbeat for some filmakers. How do we learn otherwise?
Tinternet and books can give us a lot but having your films critiqued by peeps in the know is a great buzz and all part of the package.

The English disease is still with us with some competitions...

Great ideas and opportunities, just badly finished off in the lack of feedback to film maker

Just a thought
Stephen

Film making is not a matter of Life and Death
It's much more important than that.
ned c
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by ned c »

For really cryptic comments enter the Morecambe Intl!!

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fraught
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by fraught »

I've had the same gripe in the past Mike, although i have to say that judging has improved since i last had a winge!
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Chrisbitz
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Chrisbitz »

Dear <filmmaker>
Your film, <filmname> was very nice.

Well done and good luck next year.
thanks for entering,

Chris.


There ya go Mike, just send your £5 to me next year, and I'll judge your films.
I like to make films, this is- my Youtube account. What's yours?

"all of the above is nothing more than nonsensical ramblings, and definately should NOT be misconstrued as anyone's official policy"
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Too many words Chris: can you edit that?
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Willy
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Willy »

Mike Shaw wrote:Too many words Chris: can you edit that?
I don'k know what happened to the judges who judged "Guernsey, I Love You !" The comments were rather bitter. It was not the version that was shown in Guernsey last year. It was much shorter. In our regional competition in Belgium which took place on 17th and 18th April, the same weekend as BIAFF, it received a gold award. In Bedford 3 stars which is good. 3 stars means : well made technically, competent, keeps our interest and/or entertains. However, the report was not encouraging. It was quite different from the other reports that I received. My report for "Dancing in the Air" for instance was very positive and even the negative criticism was written in a very positive way.

Film made by the Guernsey Tourist Board ?
Extract from the report : "The video could have been made by the Guernsey Tourist Board, a Guernsey Group of film makers or someone who just loves this attractive place - it really doesn't matter. The star IS the island and we get to see plenty of it." Such words don't tell me anything interesting. Why telling such things ? Maybe I am completely wrong, but it feels as if someone wanted to insinuate that the film could have been made by the Guernsey Tourist Board ? The film was made by two hobbyists : Peter Rouillard and I myself. The Alderney Tourist Board had only given a time table of the ferry. Of course we read brochures published by the Guernsey Tourist Board to know more about the island, but there is nothing wrong with it.

The acting/directing was not excellent !
Worse :
"The judges thought that the girl was too glib with her descriptions - they were good, but slowing down her delivery with some slight hesitation at times would have been more believable."
Everybody told me that the pretty girl Martine was very very natural. In reality she was even in love with Adam, the boy and folksinger in the film. There was some slight hesitation in which she was saying. From time to time she looked in his eyes without saying anything. She was in love ! When we had filmed all the dialogues it seemed that she had not appealed to him. He could not fall in love with her thought they seemed to enjoy each other's presence. I thought Adam was an idiot : such a charming good looking girl ! He missed a big chance ! But on the other hand : he had a real Guernsey girl friend and that's why he didn't want to kiss Martine on her lips at the end of the film. After all : hugging was better than kissing her.

Too many things were shown !
The judges said : "The boy could have a bit more of his guitar and looked as if he was an interested visitor as well as a prospective lover. " Imagine that we had made the singing scenes a bit longer... ! Adam (Rob Evans in the film) was an interested visitor ... He wanted to know more about the island. That's why he had stuck icons on his car : a donkey, a milkcan, a cow ... I was always told that it is good to show some different things in a travelogue otherwise it would be too boring. The BIAFF-judges said : "We were told so much and so speedily, about what the island has to offer the holiday maker, historian, war veteran etc... that we could not keep up and felt that a general audience would flounder somewhat. Perhaps concentrating on some of the well less know, yet equally attractive places and shortening the film would help." The most important thing about the island is the occupation during the Second World War. There are bunkers everywhere ! Also the house where Victor Hugo lives is extraordinary ! It was difficult to get the permission to film there. Even the Guernsey Tourist Board thought that we would never be able to enter the house with our camera. Letters in French were written to the Ville de Paris. This was a challenge. The result was something to be proud of ! And we have made a good selection for the film. There are still many other things to see and to visit.

Gloomy
An other thing that was not appreciated : "The camera work and photogrpahy was OK, but there seemed to be rather gloomy interior shots ... "atmospheric" comes to mind !"
"Wow ! What a photography the audience said in Belgium when having watched the film at the regional competition.
A Belgian friend who was a final judge at BIAFF some years ago. He said that all films in the first stages were shown on TV-screens. He was very disappointed. Now I wonder : Was "Guernsey, I Love You !" shown on an old "prehistoric" TV-set ?
We watched the film again to discover the shots that were not brilliant enough. We could not find any.

But it did have a happy ending !
This was the last sentence of the report. Does it not sound a bit cynical ? Maybe I have that feeling because of the language barrier. Maybe I have interpreted that sentence in a wrong way.

Anyway as Mike said : the judges' comments are very important. All the things that I write in my reports as a judge are not always right. I am not the Lord God. I am sure I do not know it all. We are all human beings with our our feelings and our own knowledge. Actually I appreciate the judges of "Guernsey, I Love You !". Now I know why it received 3 stars instead of 4 stars. In other competitions the judges don't even have to write any reports.

Conclusion :
I only fear that there were not enough judges for so many films at BIAFF which is not a surprise because finding them is not a sinecure. Secondly : All films should be shown on a wide screen instead of TV-set, but maybe they were shown on a wide screen. I was not there.

Please, take part in the Guernsey Lily and take part in that competition!
Having read this I hope you are still willing to take part in the festival and even visit that beautiful island with palm trees, lots of interesting museums and lovely footpaths along the coast. The deadline is 31st May. I know that 11 Belgian films have already entered and probably you will see some "en première" !
Willy Van der Linden
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Interesting, Willy. I have, of course, seen 'Guernsey, I Love You!' (and even have a copy of it- kindly sent to me by Peter), and cannot relate to the judge's comments you give here.

But then, just back from BIAFF, I couldn't relate to some of the judge's decisions for the final day's offerings either - they obviously saw things I didn't - (or, more unlikely, failed to see things I did!). Even knowing the category breakdowns, I found it difficult to understand sometimes at the Saturday cinemas, why one film warranted a 4 star and another just a 3. (I thought my own films by the way were lucky to have scraped together 3 stars, so I'm not judge bashing here!).

One particular film I 'sort of' saw for the second time on the Sunday ... and then, as before, I woke up with a start at the same point what seemed to be hours later. It was announced, on screen, that the film was to be given away to people who were unable to take the full tour round some stately home ... and if left to me, that's where it would (should) have stayed. Which proves I am not on anything like the same wavelength as all the judges who must have seen it and deemed it worthy of award and progressing through to be entertainment for the 'big day'. When I did re-awake to watch the final 5 or 10 minutes, I took the opportunity to look around - others were still deeply in the land of their own, eyes-closed thoughts. In my book, a good documentary is one that captures the imagination and attention of those not even remotely interested in the subject matter. We have all seen plenty of those and felt we must pursue the subject further.

With around 250 films entered, it would be virtually impossible (and extremely unfair) for any one group of judges to view all of the films. Judging, however one tries to dress it up otherwise, must be subjective to some degree, although I do appreciate that a good judge would try to remove as much subjectivity as possible from his/her decisions. I'm sure a group of judges would discuss the films they see and come to a less subjective overall decision - but do specific groups of judges see specific groups of films?

It is not an easy nut to crack, and fortunately (for everyone!), I am not the one with the nutcracker. I'm quite sure there are judging 'rules' and things to look for. But as Willy says, once a film has been judged, getting a constructive critique down to help the maker is another kettle of fish. I'm happy that my BIAFF crits were constructive and helpful. Praise is nice to receive, and of course backs up our own feelings for our own work. But a bit of constructive feedback is what helps us to move up the scale.
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Geoff Addis »

Mike,

You were obviousely asleep before the film started since the opening caption did not say that it was to be given away as you describe. It stated that the film was made to be shown to disabled visitors unable to walk around the house, this puts a quite different perspective on the purpose for which the film was made.

So, you have well demonstrated that you don't necessarily see everything that some judges do.

Geoff
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by ned c »

Judging is subjective so good judging is when the judges like your film and rate it highly; bad judging is when they fail to do so. The n-c world is very lucky in that many of the Festivals do deliver the judges comments, a massive and demanding task that by its nature will please some and irritate many. I don't know of a "professional" Festival that provides comments, many don't even acknowledge the receipt of an entry other than to cash the check. My advice is read the comments and win or lose take them with a grain of salt,

ned c
Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Absolutely right Geoff - my memory suitably jogged, that is exactly what the intro said. And I have absolutely no doubt that the film is very interesting and a godsend for those who can't otherwise enjoy the tour: my point though is that while it had a rightful place in such a situation, and would perfectly replicate being able to go round the various rooms which are unquestionably endowed with many interesting treasures, as a film for entertaining in the cinematic sense, it lacked (for me) the usual elements associated with a documentary. In my mind, there were other documentaries which would have more rightly earned a top award as a documentary.

One man's meat and all that...
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Willy
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Willy »

ned c wrote:Judging is subjective. My advice is read the comments and win or lose take them with a grain of salt,

ned c
I agree with you, Ned. Judging is subjective, but it is difficult to read comments with a grain of salt when you have worked on a film for two, maybe for three years.

I had three BIAFF-entries. I compared the results and reports. I was surprised.

An anecdote : one of my clubmates is a filmschool student. His entry got 3 BIAFF-stars. In my own local competition it had received the lowest score ever. Only 40 %. The judges didn't understand the film at all. Neither did I. Our young man didn't attend our own festival, but later he admitted that this 'film' was only an excercise for school. He had received a filmstrip from his teacher. He had to do something with it. He asked a lady to sew two pieces of filmstrip together. He filmed the sewing process with a macro lens from different angles. That was it. He said : everybody can give his own interpretation to it. Now I am looking forward to reading the judges comments.

You are right, Ned. We should be happy with everything we receive from BIAFF. It is not easy to find friends who are willing to travel from the South to the North to spend a weekend in the dark and to be concentrated all the time. So, we are obliged to read the comments with a grain of salt ... because in some years we won't find judges anymore.

Last winter I was asked to be a judge in 7 clubs. I accepted only 3 because there are limits and also because I am a filmmaker myself. Maybe next year I will have more time because I have decided to stop filming at the age of 65. Nobody believes me. But mind, I still have 3 projects.
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Mike Shaw

Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Mike Shaw »

Good grief Willy - you can't stop filming when you're 65!!

That's when I started.

(OK, it shows - but it's "only a hobby")
Michael Slowe
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Michael Slowe »

First of all Willy I endorse Mike Shaw's comments, you can't stop at that young age. I'm 75, have just returned from BIAFF (only 4 stars this year but more of that later) and have plans for plenty more productions. We both have lived film making for very many years and when something like that has occupied the mind for so long it would be very sad (and medically unwise) to stop unless physically unable to continue.

As to the judging discussion we read tales of woe every year at this time but as I keep saying to people, film viewing, together with music, ballet, picture, what have you, is very subjective. We all see and interpret things differently and what a boring world it would be if it was otherwise. I disagreed with some of the classification of many of the films (not oddly enough with my own score, although I lost count of those that came up to me saying otherwise) but at least we had the chance to see many of the films and make our own judgement if we wanted to .

As regards written comments by judges I don't agree with what most of you posted. I disregard them entirely, always have, going right back to the Ten Best days of the 70's. I know very well what's wrong with my film but that's what I made and I have to live with it. I try to do better next time but we are what we are and most of us do the same thing! You hear people say "if only I had my time again". You know what? They would do exactly the same, they are the same person. If you need praise for a film sit with an audience and watch your film, if it's any good you will get praise, if it isn't you won't!
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Re: Judges critiques - a criticism!

Post by Dave Watterson »

As regards written comments by judges I don't agree with what most of you posted. I disregard them entirely, always have, going right back to the Ten Best days of the 70's.
Darn!
To think of the hours I've spent writing crits for your films, Michael!

Of course any film maker should do what they wish with crits. One fine film maker puts them away unread until just before he starts his next project. By then he is less sensitive about the last film since his mind is filled with plans for the new one. He says he sometimes finds points that help him avoid similar mistakes in the new movie.
- Dave
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