THE SAME OLD SONG!

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Pqtrick
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THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Pqtrick »

Music and its copyright is a well worn thread on this forum. However, I will mention the subject again, in as much as its was highlighted at a club meeting which I attended here in France last night.

One film which was shown, had a music track which the author said he could not use it any further [i.e. for competitive purposes etc] for reasons of copyright. OK so far. I posed the innocent question, why not? Illustrating the copyright clearance scheme which has been negotiated by the IAC. There was some surprise, as no such scheme has been arranged by the equivalent French Federation.

It would appear that rights for music, have to be negotiated directly by the the film maker or with the copyright holders agents, a daunting task. Or with one particular music publisher, which has a generous rate for use of music by amateurs of 8 Euros per thirty seconds. Indeed, the IAC scheme is an exceptionally good deal. My MCPS licence does not now cover me in France.

I solicited the notion that perhaps the FFC (French 'IAC')had not the initiative to negotiate a similar deal. In common with many questions I pose, I always get the same answer 'C'est la France'. It would seem that the French music copyright industry is tres forte.

So, any piece of music I may use in a film, where I have purchased the disc in the UK, I would have pay an exorbitant fee to use it in the same way in France. If someone composes music in some far flung reaches of the universe, his efforts are are just going to enrich the restrictive practices under another countries laws. Meaning, just to line the pockets of the lawmakers.

I believe in a fair days work for a fair day pay. The notion that someone can whistle a tune in their adolescent years, and then it serves them with remuneration into their old age is an unfair practice. The idea of penniless composers scratting a living in a garret is well past its sell by date!

We have to live with these nuances of variation in this so called rich and diverse world. Perhaps we do not always agree with UncleSAM. But Ned C, told me of the 'Fair use' policy relating to many copyright matter in the US. That to me seems a good idea.

I just wonder how other countries copyright operate?

[I hope I am not going to get my knuckles rapped for for posting this in the wrong place!] PW
No punishment! I just moved this post to the more appropriate forum. - Dave
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Dave Watterson
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Dave Watterson »

Our Australian friends are having problems with their music industry. They had an agreement with the trade organisation which let them use music for a modest fee. A new lawyer at that organisation decided that the trade body did not have the right to issue such licences ... so the scheme stopped.

By chance I just received news from IAC's copyright expert, Gerald Mee. He tells me that music you download in the UK and pay for is included in the terms of the IAC licensing scheme.

Music on IAC members' own productions, that is copyright-cleared under the licences IAC issue, can be used on uploaded videos that members want to show on Youtube ... PROVIDED THAT THERE IS NO FINANCIAL GAIN AND THAT THERE ARE NO ADVERTISEMENTS ATTACHED.

- Dave
ned c
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by ned c »

Just a quick explanation about Paddy's comment on the "Fair Use" clause in the USA. The clause is included to protect the educational use of copyrighted material. AMPS is an "Educational" organization so we may use the Fair Use clause to cover our Festival. You may have heard of Mark Levy as the maker of very short, very funny films, Mark is also a lawyer specializing in Intellectual Property Rights and has confirmed that we are working within the law. In the US Copyright law there is also an exemption from copyright infringement for "parody" which explains why all those songs using well known tunes for send ups are heard on radio and TV.

ned c
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Willy
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:
Music on IAC members' own productions, that is copyright-cleared under the licences IAC issue ...
- Dave
La Belgique !
A big problem in "la Belgique" as well, Paddy, Dave and other friends ! Every year our umbrella organisation CvB (the Belgian IAC) asked us to fill in a form for SABAM (the national copyright organisation) and write down the music that we had used. In our CvB-membership copyright was included. CvB made an agreement with SABAM years ago. However, SABAM will stop the agreement on 1st April 2010. Yes, on Fools' Day, but it is serious. From 1st April 2010 onwards we are allowed to use only Library Music. They have given us information where to find that Library Music.

Now there is a second umbrella organisation. It's called VAC (Flemish Amateur Cineasts). Also their agreement with SABAM will stop on 1st April.

Both VAC and CvB have given us information where we can find and buy that Library Music.

My question to Gerald Mee : Am I allowed to use any music in Belgium being a member of the IAC ? In fact Paddy has already asked such a question. The problem should be solved on European level. Of course I am a member of the IAC. And there is no financial gain and there are no advertisements attached. I am a non-commercial filmmaker "pur sang". In Belgium we will have to pay more and more to SABAM, the copyright organisation.

Is it better to stop making films ?
If I am limited in using the music that I want ... and if I am obliged to buy a new camera (it's getting more and more difficult to find mini-DV-cassettes in our shops and our department stores) then it's better to stop making films.

Imagine that I am filming a brass band or a group of musicians somewhere in the Far East and that I use that live music in my film ? What do I have to do then ? The members of our filmclubs ask such questions nowadays. More and more friends get into a panic.

Strong words are used in Belgium nowadays. Words like Mafia ! What happens to the money SABAM gets from non-commercial filmmakers ? Do they pay authors or composers with the money they get ? It even seems that our politicians are not able to do anything on it. A Member of Parliament protested against SABAM some years ago. He used VERY strong words, but now he doesn't say anything anymore. I don't know why. Maybe because the copyright organisation has become a political organision in some way... A CvB-VIP told us in a meeting that more than 300 people for SABAM at this moment. Maybe they've got their job thanks to political support. I'm just telling you what that CvB-VIP has told us. These 300 people must be paid and there is also the recession. In Belgium and maybe also in other European countries there is more and more unemployment ...

The President of Europe must solve the problem
Mind : I am the first to defend copyright. Composers must be paid for the music they have composed. I remember that Charles Dickens even talked about copyright problems to the American president. His books were sold everywhere and Charles didn't get any money for it. That was unfair. Maybe we should talk to our President of Europe to solve the problem ... ! Maybe I am a bit joking now. However, ... maybe we can ask the European Commission.
Willy Van der Linden
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FILM THURSO
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by FILM THURSO »

" Music on IAC members' own productions, that is copyright-cleared under the licences IAC issue, can be used on uploaded videos that members want to show on Youtube ... PROVIDED THAT THERE IS NO FINANCIAL GAIN AND THAT THERE ARE NO ADVERTISEMENTS ATTACHED."

- Dave


WOWSER! Dave that's excellent. Now I can be sure of putting CFT's films up with the music tracks isn't going to get us in trouble... how nice! (and they might make more sense too! :shock: )
Brian Saberton
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Brian Saberton »

Reading this thread it seems that we in Britain are extremely fortunate to have the IAC negotiated scheme. I dread to think what would happen if the European Commison ever got involved in finding an EU wide "solution" - maybe we shouldn't say too much about it!
Brian Saberton
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Dave Watterson
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Dave Watterson »

Is it better to stop making films ?
If I am limited in using the music that I want ...
I know Willy was not completely serious, but in any case I don't think the Belgians (French or Australians) should panic too much.
First
There is a vast quantity of "royalty free" music available on CD and download. Much of it is really only suitable for background work, but some is very good indeed. Some is free, most you pay a little for.
Second
There are thousands of musicians willing to try composing for film and prepared to work without fee for the experience and a copy of the finished movie to add to their CV.
Third
Garage Band and similar software allows people who are not musicians to create acceptable music for many film situations.
Fourth
Relying on familiar commercially sold music often brings unexpected associations ... tunes become linked in the mind with specific situations and events in our lives, and those may not be associations you want for your scene.

Street Music
Imagine that I am filming a brass band or a group of musicians somewhere in the Far East and that I use that live music in my film ?
Stricty speaking fees should be paid to the rights-owners of the music, the arranger and performers! On tv documentaries anyone in the background whistling a recognisable tune means a flurry of acticity to identify it and clear the music rights. In practice the arranger and performers will probably never know about your film or care that their work has been recorded ... but if the tune is owned by a major global music company, they might chase you.

If you must use commercially available (and "production library") music:

Films made purely for family use are unlikely to have any problems. In the UK dubbing commercial music onto them is against the law ... but no one is likely to find out or to worry about it.

Films which we take to the club and competitions should be copyright cleared. Trouble is unlikely but you never know who may be in the audience with music business connections.

Films which we put onto the web should be carefully copyright cleared, because "tune recognition" software automatically searches major video websites and is pretty good at spotting what music you have used.

Dave
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Willy
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Re: THE SAME OLD SONG!

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:
Is it better to stop making films ?
If I am limited in using the music that I want ...
I know Willy was not completely serious, but in any case I don't think the Belgians (French or Australians) should panic too much.
I understand what you mean, Brian, ... and yes, I was not compelety serious about the European Commission. I am only serious when telling you that more and more problems should be solved on a European level, but not that one... Economical problems for instance. That's not a problem to talk about on this forum.

Many thanks for giving some courage and information, Dave, but I'm still in panic and so are all my friends. Last night I was in an other club. People could not stop talking about the new measures that have been taken. We are all obliged to take that pill. It's worse than you may think, Dave, and yes, indeed Brian, long live the IAC and its members ! Maybe eventually SABAM, the Belgian copyright organisation, will queer its own pitch...but it will also stab amateur film clubs to the heart. Do not forget I am a worrywart, but I am not a defeatist.
Willy Van der Linden
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