How would you judge experimental films ?

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Willy
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How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Willy »

The Abyss of the Soul
Yesterday we had our local heat. That's our club competition. The winner was our young filmmaker Samuel Faict. Last year Samuel won a diamond award at BIAFF with "Amber" and he was also successful at the Lily Festival in Guernsey. Hopefully he will take part again this year. He promised. He knows that he can enter his films online. He knows that the deadline is 31st January. His new film is called "The Abyss of the Soul". Actually he gave it a French title : "Le Précipice de l'Âme". You can see it on U-tube. Again he found inspiration in his mother's death. In our club we asked him why he had chosen a French title because we are in Flanders, the Dutchspeaking part of Belgium. He told us because it sounds better. It is more melodic. His films are always gloomy and difficult to understand. Once Samuel said : "You don't have to understand my films. You may always give your own interpration. It's good that people talk about my films". I can also refer to the articles on the IAC-website about his film "Amber" in which he compares his films with works of art by Picasso.

All this makes it very difficult for the judges to evaluate his films and experimental films in general. Thanks to the technical qualities in the film '"The Abyss of the Soul" Samuel received a good score : 74,50 percent. We had seen "The Abyss of the Soul" already some weeks ago and we were very anxious to know what the judges would think about it. In it you can see a lady who is lying on her deathbed. She is surrounded by friends and relatives and one young girl in particular.

Seam
However, the big surprise came at the end of our local competition. Young Samuel Faict , who is a filmschool student and expert in making experimental films, also had a second film. We had not seen it yet. He had given us his cassette. The film was called "Naad" which means "Seam". We could see a close up of a sewing machine. It was stitching two pieces together. Everything was shown in close up but from different angles. Length of the film : 3min 26 seconds. I didn't see any beginning and any end. Everybody was puzzled. After the film I could hear everybody saying : "I didn't understand that film ! Did you ?" I had the impression that the judges were even enraged by it. Samuel himself couldn't explain anything because he was absent. It was idiocy, foolishness ! Maybe that's what he had in mind. To create confusion in the minds of the audience.

Result : Samuel was first with "The Abyss of the Soul" , but he was last with "Seam". The judges gave him 40 % This never happened in the history of my club. This is the lowest score ever !

As I am the chairman of this club I had mixed feelings. I always hope that my clubmates have excellent resuts. But this time ... What would you think about it ?
Willy Van der Linden
tom hardwick
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by tom hardwick »

As a judge of many an amateur fim competition I'd say to all filmmakers that judges are human. Having sat through countless worthy, steady, well exposed but rather plodding documentaries I find myself just wishing to be entertained. The most entertaining film will win, because human judges listen to their hearts more than their heads.

So it sounds to me as if Seam simply wasn't entertaining enough. Experimental it may be, it raised questions but perhaps it didn't expose emotions.

tom.
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Willy
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Willy »

tom hardwick wrote: So it sounds to me as if Seam simply wasn't entertaining enough. Experimental it may be, it raised questions but perhaps it didn't expose emotions.
tom.
Yes, I agree with you Tom. That was the problem. It didn't expose any emotions.
Maybe the filmmaker wanted express some personal feelings, but the audience and the judges could not "catch" his emotions or they were not impressed in one or an other way. That's always a "risk" when making an experimental film, I think. That's why it is difficult to judge travelogues, documentaries, animation films, fiction films, experimental films in one and the same competition. As you can see it is very late at this moment. Tonight I was a judge in a club competition. All sorts of films were shown. It's sometimes difficult to decide which one is the most powerful film, the one which is most entertaining, etc... After the competition we had a chat with the filmmakers and luckily they all agreed and seemed to appreciate our feelings and opinion.
Willy Van der Linden
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Dave Watterson
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Dave Watterson »

That's why it is difficult to judge travelogues, documentaries, animation films, fiction films, experimental films in one and the same competition.
Unless it is a very specialised competition, a judge has to rate each film as an interested, informed, intelligent member of a general audience would do. All of us are used to seeing a mixture of film types in an evening's entertainment - whether at a film festival or on television. We all like some individual films or tv shows more than others.

It is no harder for a judge to decide whether s/he enjoys a fiction more than a travelogue, than it is for anyone else. They are not the same ... but then no two films are quite the same. Usually we prefer one to another whatever genre of movie they are. The only difference is that a judge has to put a value on her or his feelings - and speak or write about those feelings. (And, of course, a judge cannot just change tv channels or leave the cinema if they don't like a film!)

Yes, that means that experimental and abstract films often do poorly. They are rarely appreciated by a general audience.

One answer is specialised competitions. It is easy to imagine a documentary that would bore the pants off a general audience, but be fascinating for specialists in its subject.
There are some festivals devoted to experimental films, such as
Abstracta (see http://www.theiac.org.uk/events/festiva ... racta.html) and
Brisvid 100 (see http://www.theiac.org.uk/events/festivals/Brisvid.html)

But most film festivals are general. In only one of those have I ever been asked to assess films grouped by type. We began with all the comedies, then all the travelogues, then fiction and so on. The catch is that no matter how logical that sounds, human beings enjoy variety. At the end of the second day we watched all the wildlife films ... by the time the third movie about Australian tree-frogs came on the jury were nearly screaming. That festival never again tried that approach.

- Dave

P.S. Some months ago people complained about the small font used in these forums, so I began using the large font for my messages. As no one else does so, can I assume you all have enlarged your screens, bought better spectacles or have adapted to this size?
Pqtrick
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Pqtrick »

QUOTE
P.S. Some months ago people complained about the small font used in these forums, so I began using the large font for my messages. As no one else does so, can I assume you all have enlarged your screens, bought better spectacles or have adapted to this size?

In my innocence, I thought it was to do with how loud you were typing or shouting! I said to Christine one day, if Dave Watterson types any larger, we'll hear him by the window!
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Willy
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:
by the time the third movie about Australian tree-frogs came on the jury were nearly screaming. That festival never again tried that approach.
- Dave
Yes, that's true, Dave. It's more enjoyable to watch a variety of films in one competition - I agree with you and I changed my mind - but I still think that it's better to have seperate categories in the results. We have already had a discussion about it on this forum. In our regional competition we have four different lists with results and everybody seems to agree with it. A list "experimental films", a list "information films" (= travelogues and documentaries), a list "animation films", a list "fiction films". Also in the Benelux Festival it's more or less like that. Maybe you can find it on the website of the Benelux Festival 2010, Dave. But you are right. Sometimes it is very boring to see one travelogue after an other. In particular when these films are about the same country. The last few years I have seen so many films about China and Myanmar. These countries seem to be very popular.

One of my clubmates was very proud when told me that he is going to Ethiopia this year. In some tribes men and women have cuts holes in their lips and they are wearing disks in them. He is going to film it. To be honest ... I have already seen such things a hundred times in documentaries. Shooting such extraordinary things does not give the guarantee that the film is excellent.

In the mean time young Samuel has sent me a message. He was not at our competition. "Seam" is the title of his film, Tom. I think that "Seam" is the translation of the Dutch word "Naad". Maybe I have made a mistake.

It seems that Samuel is not disappointed with his results. He also told me that he has entered two films for BIAFF 2010. So, that's good news. Now what about the meaning of his experimental film "Naad" ? He said to one of my clubmates that his school had given him a roll of film, or a piece of it. The task was : make a short experimental film with that object. So now we know that he asked a friend to stitch two pieces of film together. He made close ups of the stitching process. Hopefully you understand what I mean. So that short film for our competition was an exercise for his film school. Anyway it is still a mysterious film. I am looking forward to seeing Samuel so that he can clarify the mystery. Every experimental film is mysterious, isn't it ?
Willy Van der Linden
ned c
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by ned c »

One of the advantages of being non-commercial film makers is that we can make films that do not have to appeal to an audience and recover the production costs of commercial films. The n-c film maker can be completely self indulgent; that is until films are in contest or submitted for a Festival, they are then at the mercy of the judges. My current bete noir is Antarctic films; I have now seen so many of these that it is difficult to resist a yawn unless the film maker sees things from a new perspective. I believe that films have to be judged in genre groups and ideally the judges should have a special knowledge/interest in the genre they are judging. For example, a group of retired gentlemen judging student films is a complete non starter; similarly judging experimental films; this is the arena of creative artists not technicians, it requires a leap of imagination and a willingness to ignore the "rules" of film making.

ned c
Michael Slowe
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Michael Slowe »

I totally disagree with Willy's suggestion of categorising films in festival competitions. Judges are well able to view the films and decide how successful the maker has been in achieving the twin aims of entertaining and informing (or engaging) the minds of an audience. Allied to this technical questions also arise but only in so far as they help or hinder the aims.

Major festivals in the commercial world (ie Sundance) I believe do not categorise, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they do award categorised prizes such as best documentary etc. Categorisation of entries would mean that films in a given category would not be judged against films in another category and that would be a shame. A good film is a good film no matter its genre. Experimental films would go in the pot with all the others but by all means award an 'Experimental' prize if that is what people want.
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Willy
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Willy »

Michael Slowe wrote:I totally disagree with Willy's suggestion of categorising films in festival competitions.
.

I don't totally disagree with your opinion, Michael. Indeed, judges should be able to view all sorts of films and decide how successful the filmmaker has been in achieving the twin aims of entertaining ... But imagine ... A competition. Four films are shown : 1. "ET" by Steven Spielberg 2. "Twin Peaks" by David Lynch 3. "Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore 4. "Lady and the Tramp" by Walt Disney. You are a judge. Which one is the best ? What feelings would you have if you had to choose ? To be honest ... I think I am a bad judge. It's difficult to decide because these are different genres and they are all excellent in their genre. Imagine you have to compare them with a "dadaism" film. Please, do not think I am against "dadaism" or avant-garde or surrealism. I love Paul Van Ostaijen's poetry for instance. He was a famous avant garde poet in Flanders who lived in the beginning of the 20th century. His poetry is sometimes very funny and is always very entertaining. It's a pity that it is almost impossible to translate his poem "Marc groet 's morgens de dingen", but it's great ! The words are very simple. I am sure you can find them on internet and you could try to have them translated into computer English. But I only fear that the poem may lose some of its charm and friendliness (my personal feeling) when having translated it into English.

Please, do not think that the judging panels at our regional competitions and Benelux are different for the different categories. 5 people have to judge all sorts of different films. I am not against this. As you said, Michael, they should be able to view all sorts of films, but I also fear that a personal preference may prevail. Actually this is human. Everybody is different. We must accept this. And that's why it's normal that films can be successful in certain festivals and that they are not in other ones.
Willy Van der Linden
Michael Slowe
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Michael Slowe »

Willy, you have a good point but may I say that rarely would a festival competition (even a big commercial one) have such a high standard entry such as you list. They are all wonderful films and as you rightly say it would come down to the personal preference of the judge - as indeed do all judgements on art, it is the most subjective matter. In my experience, both as a judge and an entrant, it is usually pretty clear which are the best films. Not always the one 'winner' (if you have to have one), but a small group, maybe three or four.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Dave Watterson »

You knew I would search around, Willy, didn't you? Of course poetry seldom translates well but here is a version by James Holmes:
MARC GREETS THINGS IN THE MORNING
Hi boy with the bike on the vase on the bloom
ploom ploom
hi chair by the table
hi bread on the table
hi fisher-of-fish with the pipe
and
hi fisher-of -fish with cap
cap and pipe
of the fisher-of-fish


H i i i —i fish
hi little fish
hi tiny fishy-fine of mine


And there is a charming version on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMG7uaQA_lk
ned c
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by ned c »

The films you have selected, Willy, ET and Twin Peaks are narrative films so the same genre, Lady and the Tramp is also a narrative film admittedly animation but still a story. So these three are all in the same genre, I choose Twin Peaks; I am a David Lynch fan. Fahrenheit 911 is the odd on out and in my opinion cannot be compared with the other three. So you have demonstrated the absurdity of attaching too much importance to judges selections. They choose what they like and then justify the selection with the sort of nonsense used to describe wines (a hint of tar with subtle flavors of old socks and methane). If judges don't select what they like then they are dishonest; THERE ARE NO RULES so faking rules and then having films conform to them is absurd. Let's face it; contests are a crap shoot (a term used for the uncertainty of craps, a Las Vegas dice game), interesting and fun but not to lose sleep over.

ned c
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Willy
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Re: How would you judge experimental films ?

Post by Willy »

Dave Watterson wrote:You knew I would search around, Willy, didn't you? Of course poetry seldom translates well but here is a version by James Holmes:
MARC GREETS THINGS IN THE MORNING
Yes, I did, Dave. Many thanks for having done this. Amazing that this avant-garde poem has not lost its charm in the translated form. Congratulations to James Holmes.

I also enjoyed the version on YouTube. Imagine that I make a short film (for instance a one minute movie) based on this poem ? Would you call it plagiarism ? People may say that I have changed my style again. But I don't mind then. It would be the first experimental film in my life. It would also be an enormous challenge. I don't want to spoil the beauty of that poem. But everybody must do what he wants to do.

In Guernsey I watched two films that were based on poems or literary masterpieces. One was excellent. But the other one ! Terrible ! The literary masterpiece was "damaged". Luckily the poet has not seen it, because the man died some years ago.
Willy Van der Linden
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