COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

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Dave Watterson
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COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Dave Watterson »

For some festivals and competitions discs are compiled with the film entries on them. Presenters at talks often do the same.

Some seem to play without problems.
Others provoke complaints from the film makers about their picture being degraded, added "jaggies" and shuddering.
A few seem to lose sound synch.

What is the best way to make a compilation disc while retaining maximum quality - for Blu-Ray and for DVD?
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Roy1 »

I have had this problem in the past. My conclusion rightly or wrongly is that If the discs play ok on the makers equipment and possibly on a friends, then the fault is probably equipment being used at the presentation not being compatable. When I used to be the projectionist at such gatherings I would insist that the discs be sent to me well in advance so that I could test them on the equipment being used at the presentation. When my own videos were to be shown at presentations around the country I would send back up mini tape cassettes.
Unfortunately many projectionists these days don't understand how to adjust projectors. I'm not knocking the projectionists, they are all volunteers and do their best. Perhaps some video makers are to fussy, although it is understandable that every videomaker wants other people to see his or her production in the best possible light, especially in a competition.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Dave Watterson »

That is all useful advice, Roy.
It is also true that people often carry players around with less than a delicate hand. The electric motors which control the trolley on which the laser reading head are smaller than a fingernail. They need only be a fraction out of alignment for all kinds of playback issue to appear.

BUT in a recent case where discs were sent to me and the problem appeared, I tried playing them in my usual home-theatre blu-ray player, then on two separate computers and the sound lost synch every time. Then on one computer I copied the VOB file from the disc onto my hard drive and played it from there. The same problem showed up.
In that case the issue does seem to be with the making of the disc not my kit.

Your other point about setting up projectors is an important, but separate one. Given what Ken Wilson and Tom Hardwick wrote in the current Film & Video Maker magazine I feel a letter coming on about the need to set up and adjust projectors properly!
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by col lamb »

Apologies for the length, so here goes.

It does not matter whether you are burning a DVD or a Bluray both are limited by four main factors:-
1) The software burning the disc
2) The manufacturing quality of the disc being used
3) The software creating the file(s) to be burned to disc
4) The optical drive and firmware used to burn the disc

1 Software, this is only as good as the team writing the code. Often the actual software is not an integral part of the editing software but what is known as a plug-in. This is exactly what there is in Edius, click on the write to disc icon and a pop up window opens to enable you to burn the disc. The version of Edius and encore that I use both have problematic disc burning sections of the code hence why I export an IMAGE file and use Imgburn to actually burn the disc. Now if Grass Valley and Adobe have problems with the code what chance to other coders have?

2 Blank disc quality varies tremendously, and unfortunately those 25 discs on the market stall may be cheap but are they any good? Conversely that very expensive stack in PC World, is that better because it costs more? The answer to both is not necessarily; it all depends upon the quality of materials used by the manufacturer, the manufacturing process itself and the storage of the blanks. So no easy solution here, it just a case of doing research as to who at the moment of ordering is manufacturing the discs which are having the least trouble.

3 Now for the tricky one, your edited movie whether DV or HD quality has to have its editing timeline transcoded into a file which is your movie. The settings to use are all dependent upon who makes the editing software and they all buy in the codecs used, and some codecs are better than others. I am totally fed up with seeing rubbish quality images projected on the screen, there was nothing wrong with the original video as shot, it was HD after all. It’s just that some people cannot be bothered buying decent software to edit with and the end result is a dodgy quality file that is then burned to disc, so you have problems straight away. The file settings are often quite low by default and require tweaking, there are also multiplexing issues with the audio and if these are not allowed for an out of sync movie results, but this can be erratic and definitive, that is the case cannot be applied.

4 The manufacturer of the drive uses some software which is incorporated within the circuit board inside the drive which is controlling the burning process. This is the Firmware and it is possible to upgrade the Firmware but as with any programme code which is what Firmware is it is liable to error or error can be introduced by an update. I have had just this problem with an LG until which would not write to a new batch of discs because the dyes on the discs had been changed and the Firmware needed updating to cope with the change, it did not work very well and a new drive was called for. The Firmware follow the programmed code and it controls the physical burn process and monitors the success or otherwise.

So there is no simple answer, this is the problem, it’s a combination of factors, any element in the process can introduce the error. It’s then compounded by different manufacturers producing DVD and Bluray kit whose performance and capabilities can be at polar ends of the international standards that are applicable. If these standards are A to Z and Sony design at the A end and Panasonic at the Z end then you can see that a disc burned on one might not play on the others kit. We have a Panasonic DVD player recorder which plays just about every disc we throw at it, but despite what it says if a DVD-RW is tried to be played it is a bit hit and miss. Our Sony does not play Bluray re-writeable despite saying it does so in the literature and on the sticker applied to the kit. Go figure!!!!!

Now if you have shot and edited in HD but want a DVD, this becomes very much a hit and miss affair. The resultant image quality can vary tremendously with some editing software doing a good job, some fine and others dire. The best option and output seems to be by using a HD file of the Movie and using Virtual Dub and AVI synth or TPMG and then using the like of Encore to make the DVD of the resulting MPG file(s).

Briefly about projectors, there is no excuse for rubbish image quality, a test card is easily downloaded and used to calibrate the image seen on screen. Sorry now to be sexist, this is best carried out by a Lady, females have by far better colour recognition and analysis than us guys so enlist one to help set up the projector. As for loss of sync, if the projectionist is using a standard HiFi amp and feeding the Bluray and DVD output from the player into the projector via HDMI and audio from the player to the HiFi amp then why is it so much of a surprise that there can by sync issues? A specific AV amp should be used, these maintain sync and if of good enough quality you can adjust the sync to achieve lips and audio in unison.

Sorry I cannot be more definitive, there are just some many factors that affect discs, probably why I now avoid them and keep everything in solid state form.
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Dave Watterson
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Dave Watterson »

This is really helpful - as usual - Col.

If someone is faced with making a compilation disc and receive copies of the films to go on it from various sources ... is there some way to digitally copy the relevant files onto a compilation disc so that - subject to the vagaries of the actual burning software and firmware - you end up with pretty much exactly what you were sent from the film makers?

This feels as if it should be closely akin to what you do when making up a collection for use on a solid state device like a thumping big memory stick.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by col lamb »

Yes and no.

If the disc is used as a data transfer system only then yes is the answer, that is each movie is a single file and the recipient transfers the files onto their media player.

For a disc with a menu, it is yes and no

It depends on if the disc creation software needs to re-encode the file.

In Encore it shows as untranscoded in the bin window.

There is no definitive, this is the way scenario about creating a disc using files from sources where you do not have control.

Incidentally last year when I submitted a couple of movies into BIAFF I placed digital copies in mp4 format on the disc as data files so all the projection team would have to do is copy the file from the disc. I am not sure if this is what they did but in the hall it looked and sounded as I wanted, there again there was no on-screen talking dialogue and hence no potential sync issue

What I did for the last regional competition I was involved with was to rip all the movies off the discs and put them on the media player, I then watched them on my TV to check and all was OK, then I tested them again via the AV amp and projector, again no problem.

Now I have had comments about ripped movies not looking the same as they did on the disc. That is possible, but the files are the same, the rip is an exact copy of the disc file with no re-encoding, so where is the difference? It's in the player, a dedicated player is hardware driven and should produce a much cleaner image than a software player, the hardware electronically processes the decoded video signal and whilst it is at it it can process the signal to improve its quality. You know how Bluray and HD TV now upscale SD to HD, its the same thing. A software player is only as good as the team writing the code and the codecs processing algorithms used
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Dave Watterson »

I think I have got it - at last! But just to spell it out as clearly as possible:

When setting up a compilation screening for a presentation or competition/festival ...

1. copy the movie files from whatever source you have ... mp4, mts, VOB etc onto a dedicated media player box (i.e. hardware)
2. the dedicated media player box is hardware designed for the job
3. the media player box will let you choose which movie to play at any moment.

I use the expression media-player-box to indicate a piece of equipment dedicated to storing and playing back video/audio eyc with a hard disc or solid state memory system in it ... as opposed to the various "media player" software programs which have to run on a PC/Mac/Linux computer.

This avoids re-processing of files such as might occur in editing or disc authoring programs.

Is there a danger of the media-player's upscaler clashing with the one in many projectors?

And as always, you hit the nail on the head with I then watched them on my TV to check and all was OK, then I tested them again via the AV amp and projector ... there is no substitute for checking as far as you possibly can.

A couple of years ago, Col, you were keen on the Western Digital media players (WD TV Live Media Player etc) are those still top of your list? There seem to be several alternatives around now, provided you check that they can play back through hdmi for projectors and tvs. Some cheaper ones do not have their own storage but will accept memory sticks etc.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by col lamb »

Dave
You have got it.

The media player I recommend is the Western Digital “WD TV Live”, specifically this model as it plays DTS audio.

I have one of the model previous, the WD TV Live Hub but this models replacement has the confusing name WD Elements Play, so if you are after one make sure its the right one.

There are other media players but I cannot comment on something that I have not tested, I can comment on the Raspberry PI mini computer. These have media player software available which you can install onto an SD card, it connects via HDMI and you plug in a memory stick with the movies loaded onto it. The PI’s media operating system boots up to a menus screen not dissimilar to the WD TV Live unit. These PI’s are best when the data rate of the movie is 20mbps and below as I have seen some stutter with 28mbps movies. 20mbps is still great a quality video image.

The specification of the WD TV Live unit is:-

File Formats Supported
Video - AVI (Xvid, AVC, MPEG1/2/4), MPG/MPEG, VOB, MKV (h.264, x.264, AVC, MPEG1/2/4, VC-1), TS/TP/M2T (MPEG1/2/4, AVC, VC-1), MP4/MOV (MPEG4, h.264), M2TS, WMV9, FLV (h.264)
Photo - JPEG, GIF, TIF/TIFF, BMP, PNG
Audio - MP3, WAV/PCM/LPCM, WMA, AAC, FLAC, MKA, AIF/AIFF, OGG, Dolby Digital, DTS
Playlist - PLS, M3U, WPL
Subtitle - SRT, ASS, SSA, SUB, SMI

Note:
• MPEG2 MP@HL up to 1920x1080p24, 1920x1080i30 or 1280x720p60 resolution.
• MPEG4.2 ASP@L5 up to 1280x720p30 resolution and no support for global motion compensation.
• WMV9/VC-1 MP@HL up to 1280x720p60 or 1920x1080p24 resolution. VC-1 AP@L3 up to 1920x1080i30, 1920x1080p24 or 1280x720p60 resolution.
• H.264 BP@L3 up to 720x480p30 or 720x576p25 resolution.
• H.264 MP@L4.1 and HP@4.1 up to 1920x1080p24, 1920x1080i30, or 1280x720p60 resolution.
• An audio receiver is required for multi-channel surround sound digital output.
• Compressed RGB JPEG formats only and progressive JPEG up to 2048x2048.
• Single layer TIFF files only.
• Uncompressed BMP only.
• For details, please refer to the user manual.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=330

The WD TV Live is connected to your router and to the TV via HDMI.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=400

This is the WD Elements Play and it is available with either a 1Tb or 2Tb hard drive

Your home network should then see the device, after it is seen you can use it exactly as you would do with a NAS unit (network attached storage). Create folders on the drive using Explorer and drag and drop movies, images, audio etc on to the device and in the folder of choice. It’s just like an attached external hard drive except that it is found under Network and not MyComputer.

You repeat this process each time you want to add or remove files.

The easiest way of sending video files to a person or a club with such a device is to send the files on a memory stick (MS). To play the files, insert the memory stick into the WD TV Live and it will see the MS, click on not sync and then the device will see the MS as a plugged in drive, click on sync and the unit will copy the whole MS content into the unit into a folder that it will create, hence this can be a slow process. Once the MS is see it can be selected as the source and the movies played. There is no menu or playlist just the movies listed on the WD TV Live’s menu which in turn is similar to using Explorer.

As long as the file format is amongst those listed the unit will play it, personally MPG or MP4 being the best options with MPG being either SD or HD videos. I’d be careful with AVI’s as our club system does not like them but there again it is a couple of years old.

Solid state Media Players do not tend to include up-scaling, that is where the AV amplifier comes in to play, it does the up-scaling. If the recipient has a TV then it all depends upon the TV and if that itself does up-scaling.

Now some new TV’s accept MS’s and can read and play video files, catering for these is another problem.

Distribution via Disc would require the movie files to be transferred to the Media Player in exactly the same way as stated above or if the media player is fixed wired into a club room someone would have to copy the disc onto MS.
Last edited by col lamb on Sun May 04, 2014 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Col Lamb
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by TimStannard »

Col, using you as WD pre-sales support....
1. You mention creating folder on the device but there is no reference in the link you provided to any included storage.
2. Does the composite out provide audio in sysnc with the HDMI video out? (the reason for this question is that we do not have an HDMI AV receiver, but have a perfectly good mixer amp through which we send audio and we send the HDMI (video only) to out HD projector. In other words, to accommodate a device such as this would we need to replace out amp as well. I'm all in favour of being able to project more of what our members can produce and we have the funds. I'm just trying to establish what we need.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by col lamb »

Tim
I have modified the post slightly as WD make a few different units, the one with the hard drive is the WD Elements Play model, this model when connected to a network will be seen as a hard drive under Network.

I cannot comment about audio sync as I have not used the composite and audio outputs only HDMI.

I would certainly advise having a suck and see approach and then go for an AV amp if sync is an issue unless your mixer amp has the capabilities of sync adjustment

We bought an old superseded AV amp locally, we took a gamble on it but the reports at that time did give it a 5* rating in its up to £300 category and its more than powerful enough for our Halls. If you have a look at Richer Sounds they have plenty of end of line kit and reasonable AV amps starting at £130 and one like my clubs Pioneer at £230.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by TimStannard »

Thanks Colin.
I might just buy one and play - suck it and see as you say. I'm not 100% convinced that an AV am is the way to go as we like the flexibility of being able to feed in other sources (eg wireless mic of a guest speaker) but I guess we might have to make sacrifices in one area to improve in others.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by col lamb »

Tim

An AV amp is not limited, it is the same as an ordinary HiFi amp.

Ours has phono, DVD, Bluray, CD, and even iPod

Have a look at http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/products/42/98 ... /page.html

We only changed our amp when our HiFi amp decided to not work consistently, so it seemed sensible to go far an AV version and alas we have no pre-amp mixer.

Mind you it does cause a problem, no s-video connection so our MiniDV player has to be fed into our DVD Recorder via an AV input and we then use the DVD Recorder as a pass through. Works OK but I cannot remember the last time we had to use it as all our club and member movies are on the WD Hub that the Club owns.
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by TimStannard »

col lamb wrote:Tim

An AV amp is not limited, it is the same as an ordinary HiFi amp.
Indeed. But it doesn't have the flexibility of an 8 channel mixer which allows us to fade between different audio sources and thus say, mix a live guest speaker with a video he's discussing. No need to switch sources and both can be "live" at the same time. What's more if someone has produced a film with all the audio on one channel only, it's a piece of cake to mix that to the middle of the stereo spread. Similarly the use of an input trim or gain control with peaking LEDs makes it easy to rapidly adjust the balance between different DVDs/Blu Rays.

None of this is essential, but once you've worked with a live mixer, it's very difficult to go back to just the one volume control and a source selector :)
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Michael Slowe »

Oh dear, I'm afraid that I'm coming into this at rathe a late stage but may I please ask Col some questions and make some comments?

Firstly, does he agree with most experts in the trade that discs (DVD's & BD's) are destined for an early demise? I realise that files may well be more reliable and easier to store, but there is something about being able to hand a disc to a non film maker in the pretty certain knowledge that they will be able to watch the film on their TV. On the subject of discs may I say that Col's advice on encoding software is very sound but he omits to mention what I consider the best of them all, BitVice, made by the Swedish company, Innobits. I get consistently good results from their encode and the all important downscale from HD, for BD's (as Col mentions), is really first class. As far as the discs themselves are concerned, I've always used Verbatim DVD-R and BD-R and never had a moment's trouble. Rewritables are a definite no-no, always have been. Why must there be a 'compilation' for public shows? When I give a show they always use individual discs (DVD or BD) and there never seems to be a problem and one stage in the process (i.e. copying) is eliminated. Obviously, for an important show, discs should be tested on the kit that is to be used.

I've noticed that many festivals now project files directly from an Apple MacPro computer. In these cases I find it difficult getting ProRes files to them, I've had to take the file to them on a drive for transfer but what happens when the festival is not accessible? Col mentions a memory stick but a ProRes 50 Gb file won't fit on a memory stick will it?

I imagine that eventually everything will go 'down the line' as files to wherever, as music does now. The Broadband performance will have to improve considerable first though. I know that Dave was primarily interested in improving the quality of public presentations, in that connection I refer to my second paragraph. That is for today, Col, what's for tomorrow?
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Re: COMPILATION BLU-RAY AND DVDs

Post by Dave Watterson »

There are several very large memory sticks such as Kingston DataTraveler 100 G3 - USB flash drive - 64 GB - USB 3.0 at £28...
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