HD formats

[Andrew Tweed]

This is my first post here so please excuse me if I am asking something that has been covered before. I've had reasonable experience of cine and video over the years from standard 8, super 8, VHSc and mini DV and have now ventured into the world of HD with the purchase of an AVCHD Panasonic X900 (love it!). My old computer and early version of Adobe Premier Pro had to be replaced to hack the new format, so I've just taken delivery of spanking new purpose built system from DVC with Edius 7.

My first venture with the X900 was a 10 day trip to the incredibly photogenic Sultanate of Oman and I've returned with several hours and hundreds of clips filmed in 1080p 50fps, the camera's highest setting.

My first problem was getting the footage into Edius. If I tried to copy across too much data it caused the program to crash. A quick call to DVC confirmed that this is not an unheard experience with Edius. Transferring in smaller batches however was no problem.

I then discussed with the most helpful Ringo at DVC some of the differences of filming in different HD formats. I obviously want the best quality images which is why I filmed in 1080p but I now understand that it is probably better to capture in 1080i and set my project settings as 1080i as this is the most flexible for producing both Blueray and DVDs but that for Youtube you are best off with progressive settings.

I am now totally confused, it would be really great to have a table indicating what HD format is best for which output and to understand if there is any loss of quality by setting a project's settings to different parameters than that in which it was captured.

Can anyone advise?

Andrew Tweed
Potters Bar Film Makers.

[Michael Slowe]

First of all may I be the first to welcome you on board, you will find great diversity in the views expressed but hopefully much in the way of enlightenment.

I can only speak personally but I always shoot in 1920 X 1080i although most professionals shoot progressive as they say it produces pictures nearer in appearance to that obtained on film. Furthermore, if the material is to be uploaded to say, Vimeo or You Tube it is thought that progressive is better. There is a drawback though, fast pans tend to 'judder' rather. I have recently put a number of my HD films on to Vimeo and they were shot interlaced and they look great, even when filling a computer screen. I believe that they get converted by the site but I'm not sure. As to DVD's and Blu-Rays, I think anyone who's seen my stuff on really big screens would agree that it looks great. So, I manage quite well shooting interlaced and making my discs from that material.

What codec are you editing in? I convert all my footage to the extremely versatile codec, Apple ProRes 422 HQ. It is still HD 1920 X 1080i but the Apple engineers have managed to ensure that very large files of media will be reduced in size which means that your drives can take so much more. This codec is now widely used in the commercial world and files can be transferred anywhere in the certainty of being played.

You will find that others on this forum may well disagree with what I've said, but then I did warn you! I too converted from film some years ago and it's been quite a learning curve, there are many ways of doing the same job and none of them necessarily the best. It's what ends up on the screen that matters, some people tend to forget that amidst all the techno arguments.

[col lamb]

Hi and welcome

See the AVCHD sticky post in this section for more information.

As you have a DVC edit station using Edius I assume that it is a PC and Michael's advice of using Prores is incorrect in this case (Michael knows precisely that I would respond), Prores is for Mac's not for using on a PC as the editing file format.

Grass Valley who make Edius have their own AVCHD transcoder, its called AVCHD2HQ and free to registered users, using it does not delete your files it creates new transcoded copies of them in an AVI file format that is easier to edit than native AVCHD.

Professional agencies often like Prores files of completed movies as they can easily view them on their own Mac's but they are in a different world and most PC editing systems are getting that they can export to Prores format but not all can and it is when exporting the completed movie should the option of using Prores be considered and then only if specifically requested.

MP4 is by far the best output format for a movie file on a PC

Look in www.video.com and search for "collamb" including the quote marks and you will find some tutorials that I have made

You have made a wise choice in using Edius

A tip: in the bin window create a new folder called video1, then another called video2 etc and import the video files off a single card into each folder, its easier to manage and Edius will be more stable than having all the files in the one window. Add as many new folders as you have SD cards

[Michael Slowe]

Sorry Col, I wasn't trying to provoke you, honest! I'd forgotten that not everybody editing uses a Mac. It is true though that in the graphics and film making world generally Mac does still reign. I must be careful in future when attempting to answer queries, I know nothing at all about PC's.

[Andrew Tweed]

Michael and Col, thank you for your replies. I had read your article on AVCHD Col and very interesting it was too, in some ways it is why I posted my question as a new topic as I noticed you did not list 1080p instead referring to 1080i as the highest quality available. I know John Astin in my club gets wonderful results in 1080i but being new to HD I assumed 1080p would give the best outcome and it is an option on my camera.

So here's a question and something I will trial when I get time (probably never), if I film in 1080p and set my project settings to 1080i, will the output quality be just as good as if I had filmed in 1080i in the first place?

Andrew

[col lamb]

Always use a project setting to match the source footage.

This is valid for Edius and also more so for Premiere, to digress for Premiere users reading this, Premiere has a very useful feature when after importing all the files of the same format into the bin (folder) you can select a single file and right click and then select make a sequence that matches the source file format.

In amongst my HD recording devices I have a Panasonic 900 and after a few initial uses using 1080p I now very rarely use it always recording in 1080i so that it is easier if I want to make a DVD or Bluray

I have updated the AVCHD sticky post to include a paragraph on 1080p together with a link to a very useful article on recording progressive video

[tom hardwick]

It's as well to remember that Blu-ray can't handle 50p - it always has to be converted to 50i, and all conversion processes lose you some picture quality.

So what I'm saying is that if you want to keep Blu-rays of your films (and as Michael says - they can look quite superb) then shoot for that format - and set the camera and Edius to 50i. If you want a higher quality image and are prepared to keep your finished films as files on a hard drive or flash memory then by all means shoot in 50p. Pans and tilts are no more juddery than shooting in 50i as the effective number of different frames per second is the same in both cases.
YouTube and Vimeo might well be happier with progressive footage but they convert any files you send them so there are huge losses there.

So don't be confused Andrew. If you're happy with BD and DVD, shoot 1080i/50. If you want the highest image quality your Panasonic is capable of capturing, go for 1080p/50. All modern TVs are 1080p/50 so replaying your 900 through HDMI into the TV should knock your socks off.

tom.

[Andrew Tweed]

And it does Tom. I have several hours of footage taken in Oman which is spectacularly photogenic (as well as being one of the most interesting countries to travel though) all filmed in 1080/50p. Whilst we may enjoy watching the uncut footage ourselves, some tight editing is required to produce one or two travelogues digestible for any other audience. Sadly I have no option other than to accept the penalty of converting to 1080i in post on this production. Next task, reset my Panasonic 900 to 1080i.

The comments and references you guys have made have been most helpful, I now have a much better understanding of the array of HD settings, thank you all.

Andrew

[Dave Watterson]

Spend a few minutes watching tv in many households and you will realise that most people have no clue about picture quality. Digital has improved the situation but we still see some badly adjusted sets.

Whatever "loss" you may suffer going from p to i will scarcely be visible even to you, and totally unnoticed by your audiences.

There is no harm in seeking for the best quality available, but it is pointless to obsess ...

I take comfort from the fact that in order to match the cinema experience we regularly degrade our digital images, soften and dim the edges etc ...

[tom hardwick]

I wish I'd put it as well as Dave, so I'll pretend I said it first. ok?

Whatever "loss" you may suffer going from p to i will scarcely be visible even to you, and totally unnoticed by your audiences.

But ... one beauty of shooting 50p is that you can pluck full res 2mp still images willi-nilli from your timeline, for printing or storing or emailing. Interlaced footage is exactly the same quality only when there's no camera or subject movement. As soon as movement occurs the vertical resolution of each individual frame is halved. Ouch. That's quite a proviso when we're talking and shooting movies ....

[col lamb]

Andrew

If you have the right setup at home then you could always produce an MP4 format HD video file of your complete movie and view that file on your TV.

Briefly, network conection between TV and router and a NAS (network attached storage) unit holding movie files (Western Digital My Passport network drive) is required, or if your router has the facility to plug in a memory stick then that can serve as the NAS

Some newish Bluray players and recorders can also accept a memory stick as will some TV's

Check out Edius's AVCHD writer plug in as when you use this it produces the correct file system so that you can plug the card with the finished movie into the camcorder and playback on your (or an others) new TV, its worth checking the written SD card first as some can be a little problematic in achieving universal playback. Also my Panasonic bluray recorder/player accepts SD cards and they have played back finished movies on SD cards OK.

NOTE it is not a case of putting the movie only on the SD card, all the directory and file structure has to be there hence why the AVCHD writer has to be used in the case of putting a movie on a card.

Hope this makes sense.

So if your TV is fairly new you may have the connectivity already there to playback a media file